Talk:Condrusi

Geography question

Responding to this [1] the Condroz region doesn't stretch from Namur to Liège (rather down to the French border), the tribe probably did; see geography section: @Alcaios: I agree but I don't understand the question/proposal. Some context:

• You have added a more or less duplicate sentence citing Busse I think? (Immediately above.) I have the impression, anyway, that some old book probably uses such words.
• I see the wording was already in the first version of the article.
• OTOH, I can not follow your remark about the French border! I suppose by an extended definition the Condroz just touches France in Hainaut at its western extremity. Is that what you mean.

But the main section is SOUTH of the line Namur-Liège (that line being the Meuse). I would say it is between the middle Meuse and the Ardennes? But I see various definitions do include a chunk of the area between Sambre and Meuse. Ciney seems to be seen as unofficial capital. See the French Condroz article also. I have the impression that in medieval records the pagus did not go so far west, which I think was the Lommegau. (I could look into that eventually.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:48, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

By "it touches the French border", I meant "it goes southwestward far beyond the Meuse". Half of the Condruz region is located between the modern cities of Namur and Liège. It just a detail of wording not really related to the Condrusi, I didn't want the article to mistakenly say "Condruz is between Namur and Liège". Alcaios (talk) 16:04, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok, apparently there would be a 'true Condroz' and an 'Occidental' and 'Oriental' Condroz. Alcaios (talk) 16:13, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

If you do not have access to Ulrich Nonn's Pagus und Comitatus, I think I have the necessary bits and that could give us a neutral insight into the oldest parts of Condroz.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:48, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

@Alcaios: Not sure if this will lead to anything good enough to use yet, but this might interest you and might lead you to other things. Nonn shows Lommegau and Condroz were both stretching into the Dinant area. Ciney was in Condroz from very early. Examples of places in Lommegau are all over the area between Sambre and Meuse in Belgium: Namur, Waulsort, Brogne; areas near Thuin, Dinant, Chimay; and also in the French "bight" of the Meuse there in the arr. Mézières. He believes Famenne was a division of the older and bigger Condroz. His source for that, who he says we still need to refer to for the best discussion of geographical definitions, is Roland:

• Roland, Charles Gustave (1920), "Les pagi de Lomme et de Condroz et leurs subdivisions", Annales de la Société archéologique de Namur, 34: 1–126

The delimitation discussion for Lomme begins p.60 . p.62: "Le pagus de Lomme donna naissance a cinq doyennés: ceux de Chimay, de Florennes, de Thuin, de Fleurus et de Gembloux." pp. 68-69: "La Meuse formait la limite orientale de notre pagus, non toutefois d'une facon précise; car comme nous l'avons démontré dans un article précédent, depuis Revin jusque Andenne, le fleuve coupait les domaines [...]

This reminds me that Thuin being on the edge of the old church jurisdiction of the Tungri (Liège) has been seen as a good argument for it being home to the Atuatuci. I forget where I read that! But I know I read it somewhere, and then tried to confirm it was true in a second source before using it anywhere.

Discussion of Fammene etymology on p.101.

FYI, often mentioned in these discussions, two documents which don't just mention one pagus, but divide the countryside up and give an idea of how the parts fitted together before the new counties of the 10th and 11th centuries are the 870 Treaty of Meerssen [2]; and 800, the Bishop of Liège Ghaerbald addressed himself to the faithful naming only Condroz, Lomme , Hasbania, and the Ardennes as his countries [3]. (This has been used to argue that the north of the civitas Tungrorum was still being re-christianized, and that the church jurisdictions there can not be used to represent Roman ones.) Another document from 839 which Roland alerts me to is this which distinguishes Condroz and Ardennes [4].--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:58, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

• Roland, Charles Gustave (1920), "Les pagi de Lomme et de Condroz et leurs subdivisions", Annales de la Société archéologique de Namur, 34: 1–126
• Dury, Julie (2016), "La délimitation des paroisses de l'ancien diocèse de Liège (XIIe-XVe siècles)", Reconnaître et délimiter l’espace localement au Moyen-Âge : Limites et frontières, vol. 1, doi:10.4000/books.septentrion.12422, ISBN 9782757414682
• Dierkens, Alain (1986), "La création des doyennés et des archidiaconés dans l'ancien diocèse de Liège (début du Xe siècle?)" (PDF), Revue d'Histoire et de Philologie, 4, 42 (3–4)
• Suttor Marc, « Le rôle d'un fleuve comme limite ou frontière au Moyen Âge. La Meuse, de Sedan à Maastricht », Le Moyen Age, 2010/2 (Tome CXVI), p. 335-366. DOI : 10.3917/rma.162.0335. URL : https://www.cairn.info/revue-le-moyen-age-2010-2-page-335.htm
• Marie-Therese Charlier, https://www.academia.edu/37672875 Pagus Condrustis : le Condroz à l'époque romaine, dans Meuse et Ardenne, 45, 2013.

The above lead me to consider whether a good description of the old Condroz is "between Dinant and Liège" or possibly "between the Middle Meuse and the Ambleve.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:30, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

That's a nice bibliography for the article Condroz if you're willing to improve it. Alcaios (talk) 13:30, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

At some point, if no one else does it, I will indeed probably work on it. Same for Taxandria, which currently does not exist. For now however, these sources are also useful to keep on record also for potential reference editing the articles about the peoples. (Which can be split out and compressed later if appropriate.) Anyway the original push came from the question about whether Condroz extended originally between Sambre and Meuse. It seems not. BTW not sure if we need a Lomme gau/pagus article one day. There is at least one on other language Wikipedias: fr:Pagus Lomacensis, de:Lommegau etc. If we do, perhaps it should be combined with something about fr:Entre-Sambre-et-Meuse.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:01, 5 May 2020 (UTC)