Talk:Coney Island hot dog

North Macedonia, Macedonian, etc.

North Macedonia was established in 1991. The Macedonian emigrants mentioned in the article are from Ottoman times, and from Southern Macedonia, which is now in Greece. Until the middle of the last century, Macedonian emigrants of Slavic origin were defined and self-identified as Macedonian Bulgarians. Then began a slow transformation influenced by Yugoslav emigrants, which hardly affected the older pro-Bulgarian oriented settlers with roots in Ottoman Macedonia. Macedonian and Macedonia are disambiguation pages. There are Bulgarian, Greek, Romanian and ethnic Macedonians. The last nation was formed after WWII, but was involved in American public life since the late 1950s, after first group Yugoslav immigrants came there. Macedonia is a geographic and historical region that today includes parts of 6 Balkan countries. Jingiby (talk) 12:21, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Macedonian has been recorded in US censuses since 1910, so that's just wrong. Nonetheless, you're making your typical generalizations which are unhelpful in this case because we require specific sources on the immigrants who helped develop this particular dish. Anything else is WP:SYNTHy. --Local hero ^talk 21:05, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

A quick two minutes of searching yields the following:

• The Peoples of Michigan: Ethnic groups in Michigan (University of Michigan)
• South Slavs in Michigan (Michigan State University Press)

--Local hero ^talk 21:28, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi, as you know according to the Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups: Until World War II almost all of Macedonian immigrants thought of themselves as Bulgarians and identified themselves as Bulgarians or Macedonian Bulgarians...The greatest advances in the growth of a distinct Macedonian-American community have occurred since the late 1950s. The new immigrants came from Yugoslavia's Socialist Republic of Macedonia, where since World War II they had been educated to believe that Macedonians composed a culturally and linguistically distinct nationality; the historic ties with Bulgarians in particular were deemphasized. These new immigrants not only are convinced of their own Macedonian national identity but also have been instrumental in transmitting these feelings to older Bulgarinan-oriented immigrants from Macedonia. (Thernstrom, Stephan; Orlov, Ann; Handlin, Oscar, eds. (1980). "Macedonians". Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups. Harvard University Press. pp. 690–694. ISBN 0674375122. The Macedonians.) On the other hand according to the cultorologist Victor Roudometof: "It is clear that even in the pre-1945 period a large segment of Macedonia's Slavs declared themselves to be "Macedonians," although it would be completely premature to assume that this label stood for a national, as opposed to a regional identity." (Victor Roudometof (2007) Collective Memory, National Identity, and Ethnic Conflict: Greece, Bulgaria, and the Macedonian Question, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 109, ISBN 0275976483). Jingiby (talk) 03:59, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Stick to reliable sources that specifically reference the topic of 'Coney Island hot dog', anything else is synthesis and/or original research. Kromid (talk) 08:10, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Now we may reveal when a separate Macedonian identity arose on the Balkans, when it gained a popularity and when it was introduced in the diaspora in the US. We must also keep in mind when these people with the hot dogs were born and when they died. They were born in the late 19th century and died during 1960s-1970s. And finally we may find what reliable sources say about this issue. Not just opinions of some culinary experts or general opinions of non-specialists on the subject, but those of leading experts on the Macedonian issue, published in specialized literature, dedicated to this question. The problem here is that the sources that describe them as Macedonians do not elaborate much on its meaning, and are merely food books by authors who do not have an interest in messy Balkan identity cases. Although the sources below do not mention these hot dogs specifically, they are focused on Balkan identity issues and explain that the meaning of the word "Macedonian" at those times was not entirely the same as it is today.:

• Until the late nineteenth century both outside observers and those Bulgaro-Macedonians who had an ethnic consciousness believed that their group, which is now two separate nationalities, comprised a single people, the Bulgarians. Thus the reader should ignore references to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle Ages which appear in some modern works. In the Middle Ages and into the nineteenth century, the term ‘Macedonian’ was used entirely in reference to a geographical region. Anyone who lived within its confines, regardless of nationality could be called a Macedonian. Nevertheless, the absence of a national consciousness in the past is no grounds to reject the Macedonians as a nationality today. John Van Antwerp Fine, University of Michigan Press, 1991, ISBN 0472081497, pp. 36–37.

• During the 20th century, Slavo-Macedonian national feeling has shifted. At the beginning of the 20th century, Slavic patriots in Macedonia felt a strong attachment to Macedonia as a multi-ethnic homeland. They imagined a Macedonian community uniting themselves with non-Slavic Macedonians... Most of these Macedonian Slavs also saw themselves as Bulgarians. By the middle of the 20th. century, however Macedonian patriots began to see Macedonian and Bulgarian loyalties as mutually exclusive. Regional Macedonian nationalism had become ethnic Macedonian nationalism. This transformation shows that the content of collective loyalties can shift. For more see: Alexander Maxwell, Slavic Macedonian Nationalism: From “Regional” to “Ethnic” in Region, Regional Identity and Regionalism in Southeastern Europe, Ethnologia Balkanica Series, Klaus Roth, Ulf Brunnbauer as editors, LIT Verlag Münster, 2010, pp. 127-154, ISBN 3825813878.

• At the end of the World War I there were very few historians or ethnographers, who claimed that a separate Macedonian nation existed... Of those Macedonian Slavs who had developed then some sense of national identity, the majority probably considered themselves to be Bulgarians, although they were aware of differences between themselves and the inhabitants of Bulgaria... The question as of whether a Macedonian nation actually existed in the 1940s when a Communist Yugoslavia decided to recognize one is difficult to answer. Some observers argue that even at this time it was doubtful whether the Slavs from Macedonia considered themselves to be a nationality separate from the Bulgarians. Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-691-04356-6, pp. 65–66.

• "Yugoslav Communists recognized the existence of a Macedonian nationality during WWII to quiet fears of the Macedonian population that a communist Yugoslavia would continue to follow the former Yugoslav policy of forced Serbianization. Hence, for them to recognize the inhabitants of Macedonia as Bulgarians would be tantamount to admitting that they should be part of the Bulgarian state. For that the Yugoslav Communists were most anxious to mold Macedonian history to fit their conception of Macedonian consciousness. The treatment of Macedonian history in Communist Yugoslavia had the same primary goal as the creation of the Macedonian language: to de-Bulgarize the Macedonian Slavs and to create a separate national consciousness that would inspire identification with Yugoslavia." For more see: Stephen E. Palmer, Robert R. King, Yugoslav communism and the Macedonian question, Archon Books, 1971, ISBN 0208008217, Chapter 9: The encouragement of Macedonian culture.

• "Nodoubt,the vast majority of the Macedonian peasants, being neither communists nor members of IMRO (United), had not been previously affected by the Macedonian national ideology. The British officials who attempted to tackle this issue in the 1940s noted the pro-Bulgarian sentiment of many peasants and pointed out that Macedonian nationhood rested ‘on rather shaky historical and philological foundations’ and, therefore, had to be constructed by the Macedonian leadership." Livanios, D. (2008), The Macedonian Question: Britain and the Southern Balkans 1939–1949.: Oxford University Press, ISBN 0191528722, p. 206.

• "It is clear that even in the pre-1945 period a large segment of Macedonia's Slavs declared themselves to be "Macedonians," although it would be completely premature to assume that this label stood for a national, as opposed to a regional identity. The transformation of the regional into a national label was the consequence of the state - sponsored policies of cultural homogenization pursued by Greece and Serbia." Victor Roudometof, Collective Memory, National Identity, and Ethnic Conflict: Greece, Bulgaria, and the Macedonian Question. Greenwood Publishing Group, 2002, p. 109, ISBN 0275976483.

• "In Yugoslav Macedonia the past was systematically falsified to conceal the fact that many prominent 'Macedonians' had supposed themselves to be Bulgarian, and generations of students were taught that "pseudo-history" of the 'Macedonian nation. The mass media and education system were the keys to this process of national acculturation, speaking to people in a language that they came to regard as their 'Macedonian' mother tongue, even it was perfectly understood in Sofia." For more see: L. Benson, Yugoslavia: A Concise History, Edition 2, Springer, 2003, ISBN 1403997209, p. 89.

• "The most prominent non-Balkan scholars, who deal with the Macedonian diasporas, seem to be unanimous that until 1945, the majority of the Macedonian immigrants of Slavic origin identified themselves as Bulgarians and, more rarely, as Greeks. Victor Roudometoff acknowledges the ethnic identity of the early immigrants, pointing out that: "In the case of the Macedonian diasporas, there are three distinct groups holding out different images of Macedonia. These are the Greek Macedonians, the Bulgarian Macedonians, and the post-1945 ethnic Macedonians. The last group is by far the most recent addition to the list." The American anthropologist Loring Danforth, who became famous for his work on the identity conflict between the Greek and Macedonian diasporas in Australia, also confirms the observations of Roudometof." Chis Kostov, "The Case of Macedonian Immigrants in Toronto, 1900-1996", Peter Lang, 2010, ISBN 3034301960, p. 117.

• "Immigrants from Macedonia came to the United States in significant numbers during the early years of the 20th century. Until World War II almost all of them thought of themselves as Bulgarians and identified themselves as Bulgarians or Macedonian Bulgarians. Recently, however, for some this has begun to change. Although there are still perhaps 50,000 Macedonians who identify themselves as Bulgarians or Macedonian Bulgarians, a group of Macedonian Americans who identify themselves specifically as Macedonians is beginning to emerge as a result of developments in their Balkan homelands." Thernstrom, Stephan; Orlov, Ann; Handlin, Oscar, eds. (1980). "Macedonians". Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups. Harvard University Press. pp. 690–694. ISBN 0674375122.

• "Macedonians in the United States have not participated in the present phase of the Macedonian conflict anywhere near as actively as Macedonians in Canada and Australia. This is because the largest number of Slavic - speaking immmigrants from Macedonia came to the United States during the first decade of the twentieth century , at which time they identified themselves either as Bulgarians or as Macedonian Bulgarians. It has been estimated that between 1903 and 1906, 50,000 people who identified themselves in this way entered the United States. According to this source, approximately the same number of Bulgarians or Macedonian - Bulgarians still lived in the US in 1980. The majority of these immigrants settled in the industrial centers of the Midwest where they formed parishes affiliated with the Bulgarian Orthodox Church." Loring M. Danforth (1997) The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, Princeton University Press, p. 87, ISBN 0691043566. Jingiby (talk) 16:44, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH. If you have something to say about Coney Island hot dogs, please do. Otherwise, don't waste people's time. --Local hero ^talk 17:08, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Adrienne Hall "Macedonia", pp. 392–95. in Ethnic American Food Today: A Cultural Encyclopedia, Volume 2, with Lucy M. Long as edidor, Rowman & Littlefield (2015); ISBN 1442227311 has mentioned the hot dog as Macedonian food, explaining in the first half of the 20th century they Macedonian immigrants identified as Bulgarians. Jingiby (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Wait, so you're attempting to "establish somebody's identity with cookbooks published by non-specialists in the Balkan issues"? :} To which "hot dog" is she referring? I'll again remind you that this article is about Coney Island hot dogs, as evidenced by the article title. --Local hero ^talk 18:44, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Cincinnati chili was invented by Tom Kiradjieff, a Bulgarian immigrant who was born in Macedonia. In the 1920s he sold “coney islands,” or “chili dogs” (a variant of the hot dog) in "Food: A Culinary History Arts and Traditions of the Table with editors Jean-Louis Flandrin, Massimo Montanari, Columbia University Press, 2013, p. 544. ISBN 023111155X. Jingiby (talk) 18:54, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I think this is already covered in the Cincinnati chili section. But at least we've established that none of your other sources are about coneys. --Local hero ^talk 22:17, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Eschoff

The references cited to support Eschoff being Bulgarian, frankly, do not label him as Bulgarian... so, we shouldn't be doing so on the article.

• Funeral home record: just says he was born in Macedonia. Nothing about Bulgaria, or ethnicity at all for that matter.
• The MPO source says nothing of him being Bulgarian.
• The church website doesn't even name Eschoff.

Clearly, this is unjustified and I'll make the correction. Conversely, the following sources describe Eschoff as Macedonian:

• Classic Restaurants of Fort Wayne (2019)
  • "has been in the hands of the Macedonian Eschoff and Choka families since"
• Fort Wayne's Famous Coney Island
  • Still operated by the Choka family calls him and the whole family Macedonian. Nothing about Bulgaria here.
• Vasil's son Bill passed away in 2018
  • "He was very proud of his Macedonian heritage"
• In the Rough (2016) TCU Press
  • "Bill Eschoff, the one big spender among the Macedonians."
• Legendary Locals of Fort Wayne (2015)
  • Eschoff's daughter's husband was also Macedonian. He ran the restaurant much of his life.

Today, the restaurant remains in the hands Vasil's Macedonian granddaughter. The late Macedonian president Boris Trajkovski had even eaten there. --Local hero ^talk 04:35, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I note again the attempts to establish somebody's identity with cookbooks published by non-specialists in the Balkan issues. I see again the same elementary reflections on the geographical concept of Macedonia. Attempts are being made to link it to an nonexisting ethnic identification 100 years ago. I also see some attempts to deny obvious facts, which is rather strange, as illogical attempts to link someone's identity with that of others who lived later. But let's start in order.

• Funeral home record: just says he was born in Macedonia. Nothing about Bulgaria. Of course at the time he was born the area was in the Ottoman empire and there lived different ethnicities, but not Macedonian one.
• The MPO source says nothing of him being Bulgarian. On a contrary the article about him clearly states: "The cruel and unjust treaties after the First World War ceded the greater part of Macedonia to Serbia and Greece. The abrupt dissolution of the Macedono-Bulgarian Societies was another totally unexpected blow which added fuel to the already widespread discouragement."
• The church website doesn't even name Eschoff. Check again please: "Archimandrite Kyrill (Yonchev). The first Board of Trustees consisted of Vasil K Litchin, Nichola Gouloff, Mike Kozma, Argire Lebamoff, Dimitry Lebamoff, Argire Kiproff, Vasil Eshcoff, Thomas Lazoff, and Lazar Laycoff."
• Now on the position of the Macedonian Patriotic Organization, of which he was the second chairman during 1920s, and what the MPO has thought of the Yugoslav Macedonians: The most important organization established by these Macedonian Bulgarians was the Macedonian Political Organization founded in Fort Wayne, Indiana, in 1922. The MPO, as it is known, publishes a newspaper in Bulgarian called the Macedonian Tribune and generally promotes the view that Macedonians are Bulgarians. For this reason the MPO is not considered a Macedonian by many Macedonians in Canada and Australia, nor has it played an important role in the Macedonian transnational community during the recent conflict. Loring M. Danforth (1997) The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, Princeton University Press, p. 87, ISBN 0691043566.

• Moreover, the Macedonian Patriotic Organization issued an address to the US Congress today, criticizing its attempts to erase the Bulgarian-Macedonian heritage in the United States and Macedoniaze it, claiming that: "Our American ancestors before 1945 were Macedonian and identified as “Macedonian Bulgarians” or “Bulgarian Macedonians” to distinguish themselves from the other ethnic groups in Macedonia. Before World War 2 “Macedonian” was not an ethnographic, it was a geographical term and the majority of Macedonians before 1945 identified as Macedonian Bulgarians, reads an address to the US Congress by the Macedonian Patriotic Organizations in USA."

Local heroр since we have no agreement on the text of the article, I think I will return it to its disputed state before your intervention. Jingiby (talk) 17:27, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

So we agree the funeral home source does not support any Bulgarian identity.

The MPO sources does not describe Eschoff as a Bulgarian. That's it. It doesn't even imply it.

The church source spells his name incorrectly, that's why I couldn't find it. Regardless, we know a separate Macedonian church wasn't created till decades later so it is to be expected that he was involved in a Macedono-Bulgarian church. This does not confirm ethnic identity at all.

What the MPO stated today is irrelevant to this discussion, but it's funny that they specifically state the "majority" identified as Macedonian Bulgarians, which, even according them, a minority did not. Vasil Eschoff and his family are described as Macedonian per above. --Local hero ^talk 17:42, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Cookbooks? How about the very restaurant Eschoff himself owned, operated still by his granddaughter, calls him Macedonian? Also, do you remember on Cincinnati chili when you brought up that Tom's son claims to be Bulgarian, yet you don't like that I brought up that Vasil's son was proud of his Macedonian heritage.

Non-existing ethnic identification 100 years ago? Georgi Pulevski expressed his Macedonian identity in 1875. Stop bringing irrelevant talking points to an article about an American dish that you've probably never eaten or even heard of prior to identifying it as a place for you to reinforce your POV. --Local hero ^talk 17:55, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

"Bulgarians...who were only recently called Old Serbs, then Southern Serbs, are now renamed as Macedonians - the kernel of the new Macedonian nation." That is the official opinion of the MPO about the Macedonian nation in 1972. Check the Golden Book 1922-1972, issued by the Central Committee of the M.P.O. of the U.S.A. & Canada. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 18:33, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm confused as to how this 1972 statement makes Eschoff an ethnic Bulgarian. I have many other points above that you didn't address. I think it's safe to restore the sourcing I had added. --Local hero ^talk 22:18, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Advertisement of Coney Island Weiner Stand in Fort Wayne. There is a short biography of Vasil Eshcoff published in Bulgarian language.

All the allegations of the MPO, whose chairman he was, make him a Bulgarian, not only that. As the primary and secondary sources on the issue clearly show, the MPO maintained only pro-Bulgarian positions until the end of the 20th century. Similarly, specialized historical researches in Bulgarian language confirms that he was part of the Bulgarian emigration to the United States:

• Трендафил Митев (1993) Българската емиграция в Америка и борбите за освобождението на Македония: 1919-1945; Военноиздателски комплекс "Св. Георги Победоносец", стр. 22, ISBN 9545091029;
• Веселин Трайков (1993) История на българската емиграция в Северна Америка: от началото и през средата на XIX в. до 80-те години на XX век. Университетско издателство "Св. Климент Охридски", стр. 175, ISBN 9540702062;
• Иван Гаджев (2003) История на българската емиграция в Северна Америка: поглед отвърте. 1860-1944, Институт по история на българската емиграция в Северна Америка; стр 190, ISBN 9549943445;
• Трендафил Митев, Добрин Мичев, Антон Първанов, Изследвания по македонския въпрос, книга I, Македонска библиотека, Македонски научен институт, стр. 473, ISBN 9548187027; Jingiby (talk) 05:00, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

This article does not claim that he is Bulgarian, as far as I can tell. I'm not sure what these post-communism Bulgarian sources you list state about Eschoff, nonetheless English sources are preferred on Wikipedia. Secondary sources are preferred on Wikipedia. The most accurate description, based on sources not synthesis, is that Eschoff was a Macedonian immigrant who was a member of a pro-Bulgarian organization. However, the groups Eschoff was involved in is far beyond the scope of an article about Coney Island hot dogs. --Local hero ^talk 16:51, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

This is not an article, but part of the MPO Almanac issued in 1940 in Indianopolis. It claims clearly on hundreds of pages in Bulgarian language that Macedonian Americans are Macedonian Bulgarians and Macedonian and Bulgarian is one and the same. Check it. Also read "Peopling Indiana: The Ethnic Experience." by Robert M. Taylor Jr. (Author), Connie A. McBirney (Editor), John Bodnar (Editor). First published by the Indiana Historical Society in 1996. And especially the chapter Bulgarians/Macedonians by Ophelia Georgiev Roop and Lilia Georgiev Judson on pp. 534-556. And especially the pages about Fort Wayne and these on the MPO. And especially about Eshkoff and his restaurant business, and what kind of Bulgarian identity all these Macedonian immigrants had when they arrived there in the early 20th century. And how since the early 1960s the new Macedonian identity was promulgated for the first time en masse in that area by the newly arrived Yugoslavs. Also keep in mind that Eshkoff died in 1961. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 17:35, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Again, all we have established is that Eschoff was a Macedonian immigrant who was involved with a pro-Bulgarian organization. Also again, his memberships in organizations are trivial to this article. --Local hero ^talk 18:23, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

And I did not understand what kind of Macedonian emigrant he was: Greek, Serbian, Jewish, Turkish, Aromanian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Ethnic Macedonian or other? PS. Remember he was a president of an organization which statute claims: The terms “Macedonians” and “Macedonian immigrants” used in these bylaws pertain equally to all nationality groups in Macedonia–Bulgarians, Aroumanians, Turks, Albanians, and others. As used in these MPO Bylaws, these terms have only geographic and not ethnographic meaning. Jingiby (talk) 18:33, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, we have no mentions of Eschoff being Greek, Serbian, Jewish, Aromanian, Bulgarian or Albanian anywhere. You tangentially use his association with the MPO to call him a Bulgarian, though his "Bulgarian" ethnicity is not stated explicitly anywhere. I suspect you think Boris Trajkovski went to Fort Wayne, IN to visit a Bulgarian restaurant. Per the News-Sentinel, one of Fort Wayne's two main newspapers, this restaurant has been run by the same Macedonian family since 1916. You can go ask Kathy Choka herself, she's his granddaughter. However, Wikipedia runs on sources not the "truth". Fortunately, the secondary English-language sources I've presented in this section align with the truth. --Local hero ^talk 18:44, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

By the way, those bylaws rule out any possibility of Vasil Eshcoff being an 'ethnic Macedonian'. Apcbg (talk) 06:31, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

By the way, those bylaws were adopted in 1927 which is multiple years after Eschoff's brief presidency. Also by the way, only in 1956 did the MPO decide to include the wording that "Macedonian" in the bylaws pertains equally to Bulgarians, Arumanians, Turks, Albanians, and others. Fun fact for your day. I think we're done here. --Local hero ^talk 04:37, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm with Local hero on this one, though it would be good to get the perspective of non-Balkan editors. Kromid (talk) 00:14, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I believe in historical studies, not in cookbooks. Jingiby (talk) 07:41, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I believe in solid sources, not circumstantial evidence. Also, perhaps look up the definition of a cookbook. You have recently gained an interest in food dishes seemingly out of nowhere, perhaps look into it. --Local hero ^talk 18:25, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

• How is it even important in this article, which is about a food item? Just remove this. It's a distraction. It can be dealt with at the article about the person. Here, it's trivia. valereee (talk) 19:22, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Well we didn't have an article about the person until today (and I'm not sure whether he's even notable enough for an article, but I guess it's fine with me). We could just solve this particular problem by adjusting the wording to "another immigrant from Macedonia". Everyone should be happy with that. However, there is a chance Jingiby will add his signature note-spamming, for which we could see this fascinating discussion continue here. --Local hero ^talk 20:26, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

WP:NOTCENSORED. Jingiby (talk) 13:36, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

That is not relevant policy here. We are not censoring. We are ensuring accurate reporting of what our sources say. valereee (talk) 20:45, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

DS Alert

Please be aware that this article now covered under discretionary sanctions. valereee (talk) 10:31, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Exclusion of New England

Is there any reason this is listed as only a Midwestern dish? Coneys are popular in New England as well, in Rhode Island they're sometimes referred to as Hot wieners and are also present throughout Massachusetts (most famously, George's Coney Island in Worcester, MA) and elsewhere in New England where there is a large Greek population. Hot wiener probably doesn't even need its own page, since it's the same thing with a similar history as described on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.147.215 (talk) 01:39, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Off-topic content and note

Hello. The ethnic origin or identity of the immigrants who developed variations of the hot dog does not appear to be relevant. No source puts as much emphasis on it as this article currently does. The note does not appear to be encyclopedic, nor does it provide any relevant information about the subject matter, so I'm recommending its removal. If there are editors who think that there could be potential confusion of the identity of Macedonian immigrants from the early 20th century with ethnic Macedonians, then we could change the wikilink, although the article Macedonian Americans already addresses the ethnic origin and identity of those early 20th century immigrants. In any case, we should refrain from adding irrelevant sources. It creates a citation overkill as well, which isn't contributing to readability. StephenMacky1 (talk) 16:22, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Of course it's irrelevant and unencyclopedic. Jingiby has a long history of such editing and he has been informed on talkpages like this one to tone down his nationalistic tendencies on articles about American immigrant food creations that he's most likely never seen in person. --Local hero ^talk 16:28, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

As it stands, the sentence in question does not look good at all. It is good to take a balanced decision on the matter. It's hard for me to judge it at the moment.Jingiby (talk) 18:14, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

It definitely needs to be revised. "Virtually all" should be removed as a starter. Here's what the 500 things to eat before it's too late and the very best places to eat them source actually says: The Coney Island’s formidable beef topping with a sweet-hot twang has a marked Greek accent — virtually all Coney restaurants were started by Greek immigrants, many of whom passed through New York on their way west — but hot dog historians get tied up in knots trying to explain exactly how a Macedonian gloss on a Tex-Mex dish became an emblem of hot dogs named for New York. Thankfully, we are not historians. With that said, it doesn't appear to be a reliable source either, culinary or historical. StephenMacky1 (talk) 11:08, 21 December 2023 (UTC)