Talk:Conservative Order

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Hey, anyone who wants to contribute to this page please do. I would like to have allot of perspectives especially when I get to the ideology of conservatism. GrazingshipIV

I do not think this should be an article. While conservatism and a conservative order of a sort was an important feature of the early 19th century, I don't think it's possible to speak of a "Conservative Order" (and certainly not of "The Conservative Order"). Can you provide any sources for this terminology? john 05:31, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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This is a copy of a previous sent response 4/9/04

John I would love to respond to you on the webpage but parkaran is blocking anyone with the first digits of my IP in hopes of catching some character named "bird". So I am pretty much stuck in limbo ;)

As far as your inquiery, The Conservative Order is coined in Spielvogel's Western Civilization Volume II (since 1500). It is in Chapter 21 page 580 allot of my draft wording is coming out of the book (I was looking forward to revising and adding till I got locked out). The Conservative Order terminology refers in my opinion as an antithesis to the Liberal disorder following the French revolution. As Napoleon was defeated a group countries decided to "set back the clock" and restore the old monarchy and feudal system ( and all the rights for some and not for other lifestyle that came with it). As opposed to the republican liberal system that the French revolutionaries wanted (unifed legal code, equal justice under the law, womens rights-Liberty, equality, fraternity). That is the conservative aspect-conserving the power of the elie. The order aspect comes from the effects of the Congress of Vienna and interventionism and consolodation of power which Prince Metternich was head of. But the Order aspect mostly refers to the fact that there were no revolutions during this 35 year (give or take 2 years) period. It was not until 1848 that revolutions started breaking out again in Europe (something the French radicals thought would be instantaneous once Napoleon brought the ideas of the revolution). So the term The Conservative Order is being used to mark a moment of time in Europe when both the ideals of conservatism (Burke starting to catch people's attention) and order(a time without revolution or sever civil unrest) occured together. Hence, the Conservative Order. GrazingshipIV

I have heard this period referred to as the "Age of Metternich" or the "Age of Reaction". I have never heard "Conservative order". I'd also suggest that the period of the French Revolution was not particularly "liberal" in any sense, and that Metternich was not instrumental in designing a repressive system. The "Concert of Europe," the "Holy Alliance," the "Quadruple Alliance," the "Vienna System", and so forth, would be good places to put various aspects of this article. "The Conservative Order" is not a particularly natural or well-known way to term this period. I'd also note that there were many, many, many revolutions in Europe between 1815 and 1848. There were ones in Naples, Portugal, and Spain in 1820. There was the Greek Revolution from 1821 to 1832. There were the French, Belgian, and Polish revolutions of 1830 and the following years. That year there were also uprisings in Italy and Germany. In 1846 was the revolt of Cracow, and in 1847 a crisis in Switzerland (I think). I would suggest as an alternative that we expand and split up the History of Europe page, and have one page entitled something like History of Europe, 1815-1848 that could cover this time period with a more NPOV title. john 05:12, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The term once again, is not mine but since I created the page and agree with it allow me to advocate for it. The conservative order is befitting this time period because of the acendency of the ideals of conservatism to leadership and power in Europe. While indeed there were other ideals and philosophes which had prominance-conservatism was BY FAR the most dominant.

Also note this period only lasts for 15 years. As far as your critque on whether there was 'order' or not. If you will note that the French, Belgian and Polish revolution along with other factors is what ended the order as it happened in 1830 (before 1830 there was NO poland in actuallity much was given to Prussia and Austria and the kingdom was ruled by the Russian empire through the Romonov dynasty). Also note that that when I was talking about 1815-1848 I was referring to the general results of The Congress of Vienna not The Conservative Order. The revolutions you pointed to are a case for why the Conservative Order ended in 1830 (which if you view the article was always the information). an important contextual note about the Greek revolution or fight for independence is that it was ENCOURAGED and SUPPORTED by the European powers as the conservatives and others disliked the Ottoman empire (probably having allot to do with the conservatives high value of Christianity and hatred for Islam) in fact in 1827 a British and French fleet defeated an Ottoman naval group. Following that in 1828 Russia entered a war taking two European provinces (Moldavia and Wallachia) and continued the war until a peace treay in 1829. Then in 1830 Britain, Russia and France recognized an independent Greece...but this more or less revolt was the ONLY successful one during this time period.

As far as POV, I can honestly say that I have no stake in this intepretation of history personally, but I have yet to see an account of history that does not have an opinion in it or point of view--not on what SHOULD have been but as to what ACTUALLY WAS. I also would like to state that I personally am not a conservative nor do I adopt most of their views (as they say in seinfield "not that there is anything wrong with that"). So in this regard there is a POV. But I would make the same request of you that I made of Boyer, that I have until the end of next week to complete the article before deciding on whether to move it or not. Although as I have stated previously I would be more than willing to retitle or move it if that was the consensus.

GrazingshipIV 17:47, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)

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As used in the title of this article, this page should not exist. Hardens an interpretation of a specific period into a capitalized and formalized thing. At the least needs to be subtly reworked. --Daniel C. Boyer 16:41, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

In response to Boyer. The Conservative Order as coined in my reference is on the lines of assigning a name to a period. Such as the "Age of Enlightenment" (only allot shorter). It is not my definition for the time period but the one described by the text. I personally find it to be very accurate as I explained above and that it would be a stimulating subject considering much of the modern political language. I would like the finish my contributions to the page (probably by the end of next week) before it is decided whether or not it is valid. Though I would be open to moving the information elsewhere. GrazingshipIV

Fair enough. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:07, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Considering you both seem to have stipulated you will give me till the end of next week to finish this article....I would really appreciate it if you would remove this page from the delection menu. GrazingshipIV 01:42, Mar 13, 2004 (UTC)

It's not going to be deleted anyway, since nobody's voting, but sure. john 02:15, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

New Format

After reviewing the previous statements I am proposing a new format for this page due to the concerns listed.I will still keep this page while diminishing the significance of the coined term. Please respond when completed here. -GrazingshipIV 20:13, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

I don't think the article as it is is bad, per se. However, I am concerned that it's not very clear what the article is about. At any rate, I'll wait and see how you change it. I certainly intend to, at least, make some changes once you get done with it, though. john 22:23, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)