Talk:Constantine Phipps, 2nd Baron Mulgrave
Latest comment: 1 year ago by SnowballWT in topic Date of birth
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Recently the file File:Constantine John Phipps, 2nd Baron Mulgrave from NPG.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 00:33, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Date of birth
editThere seems to be some confusion. Most commonly cited is 30 May 1744[1][2][3][4][5][6] but this search also gives 9 May, 19 May, 17 May, and 36 May (likely an OCR error). My working assumption is that 19 May is the Old Style date and 30 May the New Style date (1744 is before 1752), but I could be wrong. @SnowballWT, your 9 May seems to be a rather minority view. I'd suggest to go with the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography and 30 May (not 19 May as previously in the article). —Kusma (talk) 21:19, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Kusma, Thanks for this. This is obviously a tangled one, which is even more confusing as it's close to the switch between old and new style calendars. I am new here and happy to defer to you and these good sources for 30 May. I am quite local to this, though, so a slight note of caution. George Young is an excellen source for Georgian Whitby[7] and the family plaque in their local church of St Oswald's - you can just about make out the text on this photo here.[8] - certainly has the date 9 May. I'm not sure how Wikipedia regards monuments like this as sources? SnowballWT (talk) 07:36, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
- @SnowballWT, welcome to Wikipedia! Dates for 18th century events are often difficult. Sometimes we just have to mention all the information we have and try not to make a judgment what is "correct". (For Phipps' surgeon on his 1773 voyage, there are conflicting claims in which decade he died, see Charles Irving (surgeon)). Here, the sources are so overwhelmingly in agreement on 30 May that I think we have to report that in Wikipedia's voice. Besides OS/NS confusion, another reason for getting this wrong is that sometimes the date of baptism was substituted for the date of birth (an argument pointing towards the 9 May theory). But generally, on Wikipedia, we must try to avoid engaging in original research and just report what is verifiable from reliable sources, be it the truth or not. If we can get a free photograph of the memorial plaque, perhaps we could put that into the article and mention in the image caption that it gives the birthday as 9 May and that this agrees with George Young's book? —Kusma (talk) 08:33, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Kusma This is tremendously helpful and well reasoned. It's a fine idea to get an image of the memorial plaque and I'll take a photo next time I'm there. Thank you for too for the warm welcome! SnowballWT (talk) 08:44, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
- SnowballWT: Excellent, looking forward to seeing this! I guess Church of St Oswald, Lythe could do with some more good images. The little we have seems to be at commons:Category:St Oswald's Church, Lythe (interior). —Kusma (talk) 12:42, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Kusma I've given this a go. Was wondering if you thought this was a helpful edit/the wording worked? Thanks again for the suggestion SnowballWT (talk) 20:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
- @SnowballWT, I think it is fine like this. Thank you for taking the photograph! I like the anchor on the memorial plaque (I know Phipps mostly from recently writing an article about the 1773 Phipps expedition towards the North Pole). BTW Goodwin's book about that expedition has both the 19th and the 30th as dates of birth (in different chapters), seems the author didn't notice. —Kusma (talk) 20:54, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Kusma Excellent. Thank you! Love this period/subject. SnowballWT (talk) 21:09, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
- @SnowballWT, if you have access to WP:TWL, the baptismal record says he was born on 19 May and baptised on 25 June 1744, a strong argument in favour of 19 May Old Style = 30 May New Style. —Kusma (talk) 22:46, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Slow reply! Sorry. This is a strong argument indeed though. Good to see you still monitoring this one. Now I've been reminded I'll add it to my list to have another look at the issue soon. SnowballWT (talk) 20:17, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
- @SnowballWT, if you have access to WP:TWL, the baptismal record says he was born on 19 May and baptised on 25 June 1744, a strong argument in favour of 19 May Old Style = 30 May New Style. —Kusma (talk) 22:46, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Kusma Excellent. Thank you! Love this period/subject. SnowballWT (talk) 21:09, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
- @SnowballWT, I think it is fine like this. Thank you for taking the photograph! I like the anchor on the memorial plaque (I know Phipps mostly from recently writing an article about the 1773 Phipps expedition towards the North Pole). BTW Goodwin's book about that expedition has both the 19th and the 30th as dates of birth (in different chapters), seems the author didn't notice. —Kusma (talk) 20:54, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Kusma I've given this a go. Was wondering if you thought this was a helpful edit/the wording worked? Thanks again for the suggestion SnowballWT (talk) 20:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
- SnowballWT: Excellent, looking forward to seeing this! I guess Church of St Oswald, Lythe could do with some more good images. The little we have seems to be at commons:Category:St Oswald's Church, Lythe (interior). —Kusma (talk) 12:42, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Kusma This is tremendously helpful and well reasoned. It's a fine idea to get an image of the memorial plaque and I'll take a photo next time I'm there. Thank you for too for the warm welcome! SnowballWT (talk) 08:44, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
- @SnowballWT, welcome to Wikipedia! Dates for 18th century events are often difficult. Sometimes we just have to mention all the information we have and try not to make a judgment what is "correct". (For Phipps' surgeon on his 1773 voyage, there are conflicting claims in which decade he died, see Charles Irving (surgeon)). Here, the sources are so overwhelmingly in agreement on 30 May that I think we have to report that in Wikipedia's voice. Besides OS/NS confusion, another reason for getting this wrong is that sometimes the date of baptism was substituted for the date of birth (an argument pointing towards the 9 May theory). But generally, on Wikipedia, we must try to avoid engaging in original research and just report what is verifiable from reliable sources, be it the truth or not. If we can get a free photograph of the memorial plaque, perhaps we could put that into the article and mention in the image caption that it gives the birthday as 9 May and that this agrees with George Young's book? —Kusma (talk) 08:33, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ The Peerage of England, Scotland, and Ireland; Or, The Ancient and Present State of the Nobility. Containing a Genealogical Account of the Respective Peers, Etc. W. Owen. 1790. p. 344.
- ^ Vincent, Benjamin (2020-04-07). Haydn ́s Dictionary of Dates. BoD – Books on Demand. p. 397. ISBN 978-3-8460-4795-8.
- ^ "PHIPPS, Hon. Constantine John (1744-92), of Mulgrave Castle, Yorks". www.historyofparliamentonline.org. Retrieved 2021-07-04.
- ^ Rodger, N. A. M. "Phipps, Constantine John, second Baron Mulgrave in the peerage of Ireland and Baron Mulgrave in the peerage of Great Britain (1744–1792), naval officer and politician." Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. 23 Sep. 2004; Accessed 4 Jul. 2021
- ^ Goodwin, Peter (2019-05-16), Nelson's Arctic Voyage: The Royal Navy's first polar expedition 1773, Bloomsbury Publishing, p. 114, ISBN 978-1-4729-5416-9, retrieved 2021-05-14
- ^ Charnock, John (1798). Biographia Navalis: Or, Impartial Memoirs of the Lives and Characters of Officers of the Navy of Great Britain, from the Year 1660 to the Present Time; Drawn from the Most Authentic Sources, and Disposed in a Chronological Arrangement. R. Faulder. p. 566.
- ^ Young, George (1817). "A History of Whitby, and Streoneshalh Abbey: With a Statistical Survey of the Vicinity to the Distance of Twenty-five Miles". Clark and Medd. Retrieved 5 July 2021.
- ^ "Constantine John Phipps, Lord Mulgrave (1744 -1792) - by Fisher of York St.Oswald's Church, Lyth". 26 June 2001.
Polar Bear
editWhile reading this article, I noticed the following statement: "Early descriptions of the characteristics of the polar bear in particular can be found in his voyage log book entries, dated 12 May 1773, and now kept in the British Library archives." The previous paragraph states that "On 4 June 1773 Phipps set off from Deptford on a voyage towards the North Pole." How can this discrepancy be rectified? Wendigo Lake (talk) 01:12, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Wendigo Lake: Thank you for pointing this out! Indeed the 1773 Phipps expedition towards the North Pole had not started yet on 12 May 1773. I have removed the offending statement. —Kusma (talk) 09:22, 26 October 2022 (UTC)