Talk:Controversies of the Polish–Soviet War

Polish POWS

What happened to the Polish POWs in the Soviet Union? Xx236 12:46, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

See if you can get a hold of Karpus book Jeńcy polscy w niewoli (1919-1922) to answer that question...-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Note: I have access to that book. Some notes: Polish casualties from Nov 1918 - Dec 1920: KIA, 47571; WIA, 113518; MIA 51351 based on Sikorkski's 'Nad Wisla i Wkra' (p. VII). By the time of Riga treaty number of Polish POWs in SU was unknown. 25440 soldiers returned form Russia, about 3000 from Lithuania and 2000 from Germany. About 20000 (39%) of missing probably died as POWs; most of them in SU (p.VIII). He provides no further interpretation of that data, most of his book is composed of documents and translations. They concern both Soviet and Lithuanian POW camps and are full of expected descriptions of forced labor, poverty, dieseas, hunger, robbery (including of clothes in winter), and occasional reports of murder. He also clearly states that Russian claims that many Soviet soldiers died as Polish POW is political propaganda designed as anti-Katyn and based on false data.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

WERS

See pages 241-245 (Polish edition); should be similar in English.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  13:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Removal of refs

Please explain the removal of this info, in detail, here. Thank you, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I had twice asked you to explain you reason for inclusion of that material since the first part is not backed up by sources, and the second, concerns the Polish-Ukrainian conflict of 1918, has nothing to do with the Polish Soviet War opf 1919-1920. The wording as it currently is corresponds to the sources, although it's not terribly insightful information, just simply more of the fringe Piotrowksi-Lukas view that Jews are to blame for their own murders. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 19:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

If we discuss M report, which is concerned with events in both conflicts, it's hard to cherry pick only parts of it. M himself notes that the situations were similar: "In the three last cities the anti-Semitic prejudice of the soldiers have been inflamed by the charge that the Jews were Bolsheviki while at Lemberg it was associated with the idea that the Jews were making common cause with the Ukrainians. These excesses were, therefore, political as well as anti-Semitic in character." The sources do note that actions of a (minority?) or Jews who were hostile to Polish militia/forces were one of the causes of anti-Jewish pogroms.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

First of all, the majority of scholarly sources note that the cause of the murders were false claims of Jewish trangressions. No serious source considers that the actions of Jews were a cause of their mass murders by Poles or Ukrainians or Russians, just as no serious source considers the fact that some Jews were prominent in industry was a cause of the murder of Jews by Hitler. You really need to read up a bit on standard scholarship of pogroms, anti-semitism etc, and stop trying to fill an encyclopedia without outdates, discredited and outright anti-semitic nonsense. There is a difference between lies that are used to justify murders--whether by Nazis, Ukrainians, Russians, Poles or Jews for that matter--anybody--and the supposed "causes" you claim. You really need to learn the difference--this is basic historiography. Let me spell it out for you. The claim that "Jews were hostile to Polish militia/forces" was not one of the "causes of Polish anti-Jewish pogroms," it was a component of the lies that were promulgated to justify those murders.

Secondly, explain how any of this is relevant to the title of this article: Controversies of the Polish–Soviet War? Where are your secondary sources that cite this as a controversy? all you are doing is slopping in handfuls of original research, again, with the apparent goal of pushing the anti-semitic fringe POV I noted above. This is an encyclopedia that goes by secondary sources. Fins some bona fide reliable sources that discuss this as being one of the "Controversies of the Polish–Soviet War" and let's discuss it. Scouring goggle books for fringe racist nonsense to include in every article you can try to squeeze it in is not encyclopedic, and it is offensive.

Finally, I dont even know why the Morgenthau report is included here, without having established what the relationship to the conflict is, in any case, the claims made here and in other articles that Morgenthau discusses Jews killing Poles, is, unless I.m reading the wrong report or missing something, nonsense. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 20:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

First of all, not false, but exaggerated. That means most were false, but the word exaggerated better represents the sources.

Second, I agree this is a poor article, it was split of FA Polish-Soviet War as a dumping ground for claims that were inappropriate for a quality article, but which some editors insisted have to be preserved.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:43, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

No, false. Something doesnt have to be disproved 100% to be false. If 1 out of 100 Poles supported the Nazis, I'm sure you would agree that the claim "the Poles supported the Nazis" was false, not "exaggerated"--especially if the claim was being used as a justification for killing Poles. Or if 1% of Poles had a low IQ, I'm sure you would agree that the claim "Poles are unintelligent" was false, not "exaggerated." This is all common sense and standard historiography, Piotrus. And no claims have to be "preserved" if they are unencycopedic nonsense.Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 21:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Nope. Those are straw man. Our text already makes it very clear that only some few Jews (do you have stats for 1%?) supported the U/B/etc., and that was exaggerated/generalized to all. Yes, a few Poles supported the Nazis and a few killed Jews; this is exaggerted to in some biased sources to claim that all Poles were anti-semites, for example. That (with refs) is as encyclopedic as stating that few Jews support B/U, that was exaggerated and led to Jewish pogroms. Every good lie has a gram of truth, and the actions of few fanatics in 1918-1919 were the proverbial spark that resulted in hundreds of deaths of their compatriots. It doesn't justify the pogroms, of course, but it explains them - they did not occur "out of thin air". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Still with the "exaggeration." Exaggeration means overstating. These aren't instances of overstating, these are instances of lying to justify murder. Qualitatively different phenomena. By offering these pseudo explanations, and by peppering our articles with the fringe pseudo scholarly justifications disguised as explanations offered by Piotrowski and Lukas, we are simply giving credence to justifications for simple lies and murder. My examples werent strawmen. By your logic I could add to an article "Some people think all Poles are stupid. But actually thats exaggerated--that perception comes from the fact that a small number of Poles were noticed to be stupid." Or "some people think all Blacks are criminals. But that perception....bla blabla." Yet again, Piotrus, this is basic stuff. Stuff I would expect a college guy would already know. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 22:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

This, if referenced, would be appropriate in an article on stupidity of Poles, yes. The topic may not be encyclopedic, but the basic logic is sound per our policies.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

POV quoting of Babel

Babel described the cruelty of both sides, here only his opinion about a low level commander was quoted, when the commander switched to the Poles. Xx236 (talk) 15:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

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