Talk:Cornish Americans

Mariska Hargitay

She is half Hungarian so she may not be a prime example of a Cornish-American. Perhaps we should use a picture of her mother instead. 70.189.144.100 (talk) 00:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

This Cornishness thing gets everywhere - Kempthorne et al

OK, there are several problems with this article

1. It contradicts itself in that the lead says Cornish Americans are "citizens of the United States who describe themselves as having Cornish ancestry", while ahead of the list of "Noted Cornish Americans" it has the much broader and vaguer definition of those "with Cornish ancestry", which in addition appears to be a Wikipedia invention.
2. Following the terms used in the lead, Dirk Kempthorne for one would appear not to be a "Cornish American", and it seems a little presumptuous for this page to bestow the honour upon him. Can anyone find a source where he self-identifies this way?
3. Even if we follow the second definition, the only source in respect of, again, Kempthorne is a barely available book which I cannot review and whose reliability is not clear, but whose title would suggest is simply very general overview of the Kempthorne family history, seemingly written by a family member. Does this actually say Dirk Kempthorne is a "Cornish American"? Even if it did, would this one obscure book override the fact that no one else - including the man himself - appears to be on record using this description?
4. The lead also states that the Cornish are "recognised as a separate ethnic group in the UK census". This is only half true - there is no specific Cornish option for ethnicity included in the basic form, although it is counted if people choose to add the category themselves under the "Other" heading.

There's no problem in principle here with calling people Cornish American, but the text needs to be coherent and consistent, and any assertions about sepcific individuals need to be properly sourced. WP shouldn't go around claiming people for random ethnic groups like this, it's simply a question of accuracy. And while I dislike invoking WP:BLP, it does call for the immediate removal of poorly sourced material, whether positive or not. --Nickhh (talk) 18:40, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

The only issue as far as I can see is that the reference to the book Karanza Whelas Karanza is not easily verified. I don't know too much about referencing guidelines but I wouldn't have thought that's a very strong rationale for dismissing the reference. What do the guidelines say? --Joowwww (talk) 22:17, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

As I said, this page is not consistent in what it says, and, as acknowledged, the sourcing is often pretty weak, or at least unverifiable, for some pretty bold claims about other people's identities and origins. If these claims were serious, it shouldn't be hard to come up with an easily checkable online source, as you can for JFK being "Irish American", to take a very easy example. We couldn't for example go around claiming that George W Bush is a "Lizard American", on the basis of one obscure book, which for all we know was written by a follower of David Icke and self-published (see what I did there?). Anyway, my suggestion would be for an intro written more along the lines of the Irish American page, eg "[those] who trace their ancestry to ..", which has the advantage, intentional or otherwise, of requiring both ancestry/origins and an acknowledgement by the subject that they thought this was relevant to their identity. Beyond that, eg in Kempthorne's case, it might be fair enough to note verifiable family origins in Cornwall for some individuals, but not to assert explicitly that they are "Cornish American". --Nickhh (talk) 16:29, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

"The lead also states that the Cornish are "recognised as a separate ethnic group in the UK census". This is only half true - there is no specific Cornish option for ethnicity included in the basic form, although it is counted if people choose to add the category themselves under the "Other" heading." You obviously don't know much about the census. There was (and still is) a specific Cornish option for ethnicity. There was no tick box option, but just like the English, Welsh etc. there was/is an ethnic code so that it can be written in to the others category. You cannot just enter anything into the others category, it has to be pre registered with a specific code. The Cornish had the code 06, so they were recognised. Bodrugan (talk) 21:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, either both of us "obviously don't know much about the census" or you just can't read - I described the Cornish issue in exactly the same way as you have done above, albeit maybe in different words, eg "there is no specific Cornish option [on the form itself] .. although it is counted if people choose to add the category themselves".

Anyway, that aside, this page, as per previous discussions, has serious issues in relation to WP:RS and WP:BLP. I have nothing against the description "Cornish American", but you can't load a page with a picture of someone who, AFAIK, is simply never on the record has having described themselves as such (eg Dirk Kempthorne) or name people in a sub-list who simply "have a Cornish name". Having ancestors who came from Cornwall may well be notable, but it does not necessarily make you "Cornish American" - and even if it does, nor does it make you not, by definition, English American as well (shock! the two are not exclusive of each other, even if your personal prejudice is that they are). And in respect of other countries, eg Australia, this whole hyphenated terminology appears to be a bit fringey anyway. This mission is no more interesting than it was 6 months ago. N-HH talk/edits 02:45, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually the Cornish are recognised as a national minority through the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, just the same as the Irish, Scots, Manx and Welsh in the United Kingdom. It is true there is not a specific Cornish tick box on the census, Cornish people must tick other and then insert Cornish. They ARE recognised as an ethnic group however, but the Office for National Statistics claims there is only local demand for a Cornish tick box, so basically cannot be bothered to spend the money rejigging the forms. Not having your own section on Census in the UK is not about whether you are a bona fide ethnic group, it is about numbers. Cornwall has only around 750,000 inhabitants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.25.101 (talk) 01:11, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

"Noted Cornish Americans" post-AFD

Now that's been closed as keep for the article as a whole (a decision I broadly agree with, as it happens), the points above remain problematic. Most importantly, what evidence is there that any of the named "noted Cornish Americans" - two of whose pictures are also splashed across the top of the page - are described as such, by themselves or anyone else? --Nickhh (talk) 18:39, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Considering Rick Rescorla sang Cornish songs while he was helping to evacuate the World Trade Center I'd say it's a fair bet that he considered himself to be Cornish. He is also widely described as a Cornishman in the media. Described as a "proud Cornishman" [1]. Don't know about Kempthorne. --Joowwww (talk) 20:18, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's a start, in respect of one of them. I have had a quick look online, re Kempthorne in particular, and didn't come up with much. I'll do some more when I have time, but I am leaning towards striking them out. Or at least changing the heading and text so it makes the less definitive assertion that the following were "born in Cornwall, or have family origins there". Although again, that would also need proper sourcing. --Nickhh (talk) 20:46, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

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