Talk:Corporations of Jehovah's Witnesses

IBSA

In articles that are about other branches of the Bible Student movement, International Bible Students Association should be linked to Bible Student movement#International Bible Students Association, not Corporations of Jehovah's Witnesses#International Bible Students Association.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:58, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Conley

While the article Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania appropriately discusses both that current corporation and its unincorporated predecessor, it seems inappropriate to interject Conley into an article a table focused explicitly on CORPORATE entities. The corporation now known as Watch Tower had Russell as its first president, not Conley. To suggest otherwise seems likely to distract and confuse casual readers. Discussion? --AuthorityTam (talk) 17:53, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Conley's presidency prior to the society's incorporation is directly relevant to the history of the corporation, and the article very clearly states that he was president prior to incorporation. There is no reason not to mention him at all, and it is unclear how anyone might be 'confused' by the current presentation.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:01, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

My concern was and is for merely casual readers, rather than those familiar with Watch Tower history.
Consider this link: Corporations of Jehovah's Witnesses#Presidents.
Even if he doesn't arrive via such a link, a merely casual reader is likely to skip immediately to the table of Presidents and completely miss the detail about the pre-incorporated WT which is in the middle of a paragraph two sections above. --AuthorityTam (talk) 20:19, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that although the history of Jehovah's Witnesses and the WTS is commonly said to begin with Russell incorporating the WTS, the fact is it had a brief but significant prior existence before its legal incorporation under Conley's presidency. There's little doubt that Russell was the driving force behind it, and according to Tony Wills' history (based on CTR's writings themselves), took the step of legal incorporation only to ensure that if he died, donated funds would continue to flow into the society for the purpose he intended rather than into his estate. But any encyclopedic reference to the history of the society and its series of presidents has to start with Conley, even though there is little evidence he was anything but an administrative figure allowing Russell to write. It may be a minor puzzle for some, but as you say, it's all explained in the article. BlackCab (talk) 21:04, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

AuthorityTam, it seems you're suggesting that we remove a fact solely on the basis that it is not what some people believe to be true. The information is factual, sourced, and directly relevant to the subject. It is unclear how the information would be detrimental to 'casual readers' to see that Conley was the first president, when it is in fact the case.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:37, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I have added a note so that anyone arriving immediately at the table can confirm that Russell was first president of the incorporated society.--Jeffro77 (talk) 02:39, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Rather than "an article", I'd intended to write "a table", which makes my first comment in this thread far less controversial. I hadn't intended to suggest that Conley be removed altogether from the article's body, but only from the list particular to seemingly corporate presidents; significantly, the article is explicitly about Corporations... after all. Regardless, the article seems sufficiently improved with the additional note. --AuthorityTam (talk) 21:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:36, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Table listing presidents

Since he had never been a corporate president, I'd earlier (see above) objected to the inclusion of Conley's name in the table at the link:

Corporations of Jehovah's Witnesses#Presidents

At first, I'd opined that the addition of a footnote was 'sufficient' to allow Conley's name to remain in that table, but I no longer think so and wish this discussion to continue. This article is explicitly about CORPORATIONS, and Conley's involvement in the Society's administration seems to have ended when the CORPORATION began.
The answer seems simple to me: move the Presidents table to Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, an article more naturally positioned to discuss the Society both after and before its incorporation. The body of this article still discusses Conley, but in a manner which is far more readily coherent. I'd prefer consensus before performing such an edit.
--AuthorityTam (talk) 21:05, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

The table would certainly add value to the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania article. I still don't see much merit in your argument against Conley's inclusion, but I also agree the table is not essential at the Corporations of Jehovah's Witnesses article, which need contain only a brief summary of the WTBTS spinout article. BlackCab (talk) 22:26, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

What he said.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:15, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Done. See diff here and diff there and Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania#Presidents.
--AuthorityTam (talk) 00:59, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Listing of Corporations of Jehovah's Witnesses

I tried several times listing internal guidelines as well as a small list of both non-profit and commercial entities the Watch Tower and Bible Tract Society operates but some WP zealot keeps resetting it claiming it is superfluous. I believe this type of information should at least be available as information to somebody doing research into the WTBTS besides what the WTBTS tries to internally claim are the official corporations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.69.50.34 (talk) 10:48, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Twice isn't 'several times', but aside from that, the minor corporations in question do not appear to be particularly notable. Unverifiable 'internal guidelines' aren't reliable third-party sources. Additionally, the claim that "Most ... congregations ... within the organization are now incorporated separately" would seem to be entirely unfounded.

Though your purpose for the information seemed unclear, your statement here about "what the WTBTS tries to internally claim" would seem to suggest you intend some kind of 'exposé', regarding which, see WP:SOAP.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:56, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

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Change?

This sentence: "In 2001 Newsday listed the Watch Tower Society as one of New York's forty richest corporations, with revenues exceeding $950 million.[11]" is currently under the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of NY's listing. However, if the above quote is correct, the reference refers to the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennyslvania (as indicated by the space between Watch and Tower). If it DOES mean the NY corporation, then it needs to be fixed (Watchtower) or if it is a misquote by the magazine it should be noted. I can't access the source from where I am so I can't determine which it is. Vyselink (talk) 21:10, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

The source says: "WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, 25 Columbia Heights, Brooklyn, 11201, 718-560-5000, www.watchtower.org, Revenue: $951 million, Industry: Publishing, President: Don Adams, Employees: 3,181 in Brooklyn (volunteers)". —PaleoNeonate – 22:09, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know. Unfortunately that doesn't help, as Don Adams wasn't president of the New York company, he was President of the Pennsylvania corporation. Maybe @Jeffro77: will know. Vyselink (talk) 00:07, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

The original version of the source gave Milton Henschel as president,[1] which would also suggest the Pennsylvania corporation. However, the address is unambiguously the (previous) address of the New York corporation. It may be that the author of the source article could not identify the president of the New York subsidiary and gave the president of the parent company instead. The statement should not be changed from the New York corporation without a clearer source.--Jeffro77 (talk) 06:04, 7 July 2018 (UTC)