Talk:Corps of Colonial Marines

Test

test, to get a ToC box Keith H99 (talk) 11:56, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Typo?

Liberty afar of fight for the British". The Virginian Pilot: p. HR3. Art LaPella (talk) 22:16, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Colonial Marines in 1814

The organisation of the Corps in 1814 is ambiguous in some areas prior to 03 September 1814.

Nicholas advises that three companies of Colonial Marines were to join with three companies of Royal Marines, to form a reconstituted third battalion. Pay records, compiled by the paymaster of the Battalion have survived and can be viewed at The National Archives, Kew, Greater London, UK. The names and enlistment dates from the document ADM 96/341 have been transcribed, and are hosted on the web pages of The National Archives:
[ http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Corps_of_Colonial_Marines_muster_in_1814 ]

During the August 1814 actions of the Chesapeake campaign, the Royal Marines, for the most part, were in the Third Brigade. The exceptions, whom were in the First Brigade, were Lt John Lawrence's rocket detachment, Lt Athelstan Stevens's company, and a company of Colonial Marines. (This has been mentioned already on Talk:Battle_of_Bladensburg)

The strength of the Corps of Colonial Marines was 200 men. Gleig's eyewitness account mentions a company of about 100 men at Bladensburg.

If the Colonial Marines were in three companies prior to 03 September 1814, then the use of basic arithmetic tells us that if one company was at Bladensburg, then the remaining two companies must have been at Washington, where two fatalities were sufferred.

There was sufficient evidence that Lewis Agassiz took part in the burning of Washington, enough evidence to justify a coat of arms using a flaming torch. The big question is: when did he become a company commander with the Corps of Colonial Marines? Keith H99 (talk) 11:56, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Cockburn's letter dated 17 July 1814 states ' I think we have about 120 Men in the Corps', which is in line with Gleig's eyewitness account mentioning a company of about 100 men. The presence of the British must have resulted in a steady increase of emancipated African Americans, and with it more recruits for the corps, with the result that in Autumn 1814 there are about 200 men on Tangier Island. The enlistment dates in 1814 are recorded on the transcribed muster sheets, and these have been in the public domain since 2012 Keith H99 (talk) 22:02, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

suggested improvements to make this Good Article class

I am clueless as to what further changes are needed to further raise the bar, and would therefore welcome responses as to what improvements could be made. I do think the quality of the article has improved over the past 12 months, in particular the structure. Keith H99 (talk) 20:28, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

>21 November 2012‎ Jim Sweeney (talk | contribs)‎ . . (19,363 bytes) (+63)‎ . . (tags added NOT ready fpr a GA review)

Hello,

I've been making edits to the aforementioned article for a while. The structure did need an overhaul, and there were number of citations which were needed. Given the number of changes which had taken place since the initial review, I made a request for a further review, as it seemed to comply with B Class.

On 19 November, I did set up a header in Talk:Corps_of_Colonial_Marines for suggested improvements, and this is barren. :On 21 November, I see you added a Lead tag, suggesting this be discussed on the talk page, and the comment "tags added NOT ready fpr a GA review".

Please can you give some further guidance. From what I can see, an intro of about 4 paragraphs is needed on the general subject of former slaves recruited during two time periods and in two geographic regions. Up to now, the focus has been on the two sub articles themselves. I am keen to elicit responses from several persons, with regard to where the existing article could be improved. I have no experience in this area. Thanks, Keith H99 (talk) 10:44, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

The lede section is very small it should summarize the article, covering the raising and disbandment of both corps and any battle etc they were involved in.

I would also combine the two info box's and move it to the top of the article see 15th (Imperial Service) Cavalry Brigade for example.

I would also consider combing the raising of the two corps into a combined section ==Formation== or similar and then the corps history ==History==

Every point needs an inline citation and if a paragraph ended uncited someone will question it. Your can expand citation to cover more than one point using WP:REFNAME if its a large block of text.

Citations should not be capitalised Heidler (2004), p188 not HEIDLER (2004), p188

Same with the references author names.

What make Linzey's dissertation a reliable source?

British and Foreign State Papers needs needs adding to the reference list and all references should follow the same style (see Heidler (2004), p188 above). They should all have ISBN's or OCLC numbers where available.

Latimer, Rodriguez, Nicolas and Marshall need year of publication added to inline citation (to remain consistent).

Ref #2 BUCKLEY(1998) needs a page number added.

What are TNA PRO ADM 1/329 and other similar numbers used for references is there a book or on line link available Jim Sweeney (talk) 13:45, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Some food for thought. Thanks Keith H99 (talk) 18:01, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I presume you are a fairly new editor, so don't hesitate to ask questions, WP:MILHIST is a good wikiproject and someone will always respond to questions there. On another note you might want to consider removing the GA request and go for Wikipedia:Peer review first. Jim Sweeney (talk) 18:26, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I am a new editor, hence The T J Linzy thesis, bears a reference pp23-34 to HMS Orpheus and the Creek Indians, which is an introduction to the Corps of Colonial Marines establishment at Prospect Bluff. Given that this was a postgrad publication, for whom her tutor was Professor Andrew Lambert, rather than an undergraduate dissertation, it seemed okay. Linzy's source is a letter within ADM 1/506 (and the same material appears in WO 1/141). Where the original source, citing a reference from The National Archives is used, it is deemed better to quote that rather than a book, as the ultimate source of information.

I do not understand the "citation needed" requirement which you have added with regard to geographial deployment on the Atlantic & Gulf coasts respectively. Were this an article about the BEF in 1914, I would not see a need to mention that the BEF saw combat in France and Belgium, given that subsequent chunks of the article should make it apparent (i.e. that Le Cateau is not in Togo and Antwerp is not in the midwest of the USA), and that the chunks themselves would contain a substantial number of citations to show that the BEF was at battles, and the locations of these battles are by definition in France and in Belgium.

Is this because it is at the end of a paragraph? Keith H99 (talk) 20:02, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

The message I am getting is 'The statement..needs a cite or rewrite'. In a nutshell, if there are subsequent citiation in the article which provide proof that the Corps were at various locations - on the Atlantic and Gulf coasts - why is a cite needed? I am trying to get a crystal-clear understanding of the reason why, and I am not grasping it. Regards Keith H99 (talk) 18:41, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

If a citation is before the statement that's fine but if the citation is later in the text then there is a problem as it needs to be cited at first mention. Using ref name is the best way of doing that. Jim Sweeney (talk) 18:45, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

To User talk: Acad Ronin Hello, I have noticed that you have contributed to the Corps of Colonial Marines article in the past. The introduction needs a re-write. Most of the details (corps were formed from former slaves aleit for different reasons, outline of each of the two Corps, legacy in Florida), but the style needs reworking. Would you be able to cast an eye over the introduction, and improve the flow, as it needs refining. Regards Keith H99 (talk) 22:44, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks for having tidied up the introduction. I will be moving one paragraph, but that is the only change for now. Regards Keith H99 (talk) 07:37, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Corps of Colonial Marines/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: AustralianRupert (talk · contribs) 23:51, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status. AustralianRupert (talk) 23:51, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Technical review

• a (Disambiguations): b (Linkrot) c (Alt text) d (Copyright)

• no dabs found by the tools.
• ext links all seem to work;
• the image currently lacks alt text. While it is not part of the GA criteria, you might consider adding it in: [1]
  • I've added this. AustralianRupert (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
• Based on a comparison using the Duplication Detector, I am a little concerned about a possible copyright violation. This indicates a possible copyright violation of this website. It is possible that that website copied the Wikipedia article, though, but I'm not sure at the moment. Could the nominator please provide their thoughts on this? AustralianRupert (talk) 23:51, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I have been aware of that website for a while. The person behind that website has also been gracious enough to plunder from the Royal Marines Battalions article which I initiated on Wikipedia. I did try to see if there is a way that the website could be dated, but to no avail. Have you seen how it leaps from one plagiarised article to another, with no subject flow? I don't suppose he cares, so long as his sponsor, EC Markets aka zone options, gets enough people on the clickstream. It would appear that he copied the article, as it stood, in about May 2010. There is no sourcing in the articles which have been stuck on that website. Keith H99 (talk) 19:54, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Hello again. The other website was: Last-Modified: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 19:51:09 GMT according to http://web-sniffer.net/ The webmaster has been careful to hide the date of creation from the markup Keith H99 (talk) 18:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
  • News just in: It is possible to use Way Back Machine's technology. The following website was used: http://www.seomastering.com/domain-age-checker.php It tells us that the earliest version of the Colonial Marines page is dated from 09 September 2011. Here is the snapshot: http://web.archive.org/web/20110909040900/http://www.modern-day-commando.com/Colonial-Marines.html There are a number of mirror sites which clone wikipedia articles, and I am wondering if a cloned article was the source for the Colonial-Marines page. Further comments will revert to blue font. This was important enough to require a new colour. Keith H99 (talk) 00:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
    • Thanks for digging that up, Keith. That seems pretty conclusive to me that the other site copied this article. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Criteria

• It is reasonably well written.

  a (prose): b (MoS):

• at five paragraphs, the lead is currently too long. WP:MOSLEAD asks that we keep the lead to no more than four paragraphs. Please try to combine one of these paragraphs;  Done
• I'd suggest combining the two infoboxes into one, and moving it up into the lead; (suggestion only, please see comment below)
• I found the language a little awkward in places. Once you have dealt with my other comments below, I suggest having the article copy edited by a member of the Guild of Copy Editors;
• "They served as part of the British forces on the Atlantic and Gulf coasts of the United States during that war" --> It isn't clear what "that war" is. I take it you mean the War of 1812. If so, please be explicit here;  Done
• this sentence appears to either have a tense issue, or is missing something: "Second Lieutenant Lewis Agassiz (1793–1866) was leading one of the firing parties into Washington D.C. as part of the burning of Washington during the War of 1812."  Done
• be careful to avoid repeating internal links. The duplicate link checker tool reports the following repeat links that probably should be removed: Alexander Cochrane; Burning of Washington; Royal Marines Battalions (Napoleonic Wars); Cumberland Island;  Done
• inconsistent presentation: "West Indian Regiments" and then "West India regiments";  Done
• inconsistent presentation: "Marie Galante" and then "Marie-Galante";  Done
• inconsistent presentation: "Battle of Negro Fort" and then "battle of Negro Fort";  Done
• quotations: currently the article mainly seems to use single quotation marks. My understanding of the Manual of Style is that double quotation marks are prefered. e.g. "Smith did this..." as opposed to 'Smith did this'. (see MOS:QUOTEMARKS  Done
• are all the See also links necessary? If they have been linked in the body of the article, there is no need to display them in a See also section;  Done
  • The question of merging two infoboxes into one has come up once before. I can imagine a similar possibility with an article on "The BEF In Northern France". There are two entities which fit into that category, and the infoboxes serve a use in a compare & contrast of both. (Such an article on the BEF could cover 1914 and 1940 respectively.) The other alternative would be to split the article into two. Given that Cochrane was the driving force behind both in 1808 and 1814 respectively, there would be some reluctance to do this. Keith H99 (talk) 22:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I suppose it comes down to whether or not they are considered two different units, or whether it is considered as one unit that was raised and disbanded a couple of times. If the first, then two infoboxes would probably be fine; if the second, the infobox should probably be merged. I'm not too concerned about this point, though, and regardless of how you decide to deal with it, it is not part of the GA criteria, so this is only a suggestion. AustralianRupert (talk) 23:35, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
    • 'I suppose it comes down to whether or not they are considered two different units' Yes, they are considered as two different units, hence splitting the article into two, and having the two infoboxes Keith H99 (talk) 09:52, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
      • Ok. In this regard, I think it makes sense to tell the story of both units in the one article given that there doesn't appear to be much information on the first corps. As such, I had a play around to see if a merged infobox solution might work. Please see this edit: [2] . The advantage of this is it provides room to add an extra image to break up the text. (If you don't like it, please feel free to revert to the two infobox solution that existed before that edit). As I said earlier, though, it is not part of the GA criteria, so whatever you decide to do, it won't affect the result. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 23:37, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I have looked to use internal links once only in the article itself, but some links may appear again in the infoboxes & See Also listing.
  • It was drummed into me at school in English lessons that reported speech should be indicated by double inverted commas. A quote from a piece of published work should be enclosed by single inverted commas, and our teacher referred to them as "quotation marks". It is my understanding that MOS follows the American English approach, as opposed to the British English style in which I was versed, so some restyling will need to be done.
  • The idea of having a copy editor review the tidied article is a good one, which I will follow up Keith H99 (talk) 22:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I had a go at copy editing the article myself, as per my comment on my talk page: [3]. I think that the prose is of sufficient standard now for GA, but I would suggest further copy editing if you want to take this to A-class or Featured article status. AustralianRupert (talk) 23:50, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

• It is factually accurate and verifiable.

  a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

• currently the article uses quite a few primary references (e.g. the letters). While this is not forbidden, per WP:PRIMARY it is to be avoided where possible. As such, I would suggest that where possible the information that is sourced to primary documents, be replaced or used in conjunction with citations to secondary sources (or at a pinch tertiary sources);  Done
  • I've had a look at this again, and I think generally the way you use primary sources is okay (although I would suggest providing a little more detail than "ADM 37/8610", etc. (the general reader won't know what this means. I assume it is a catalogue number for a national archive or something similar. Perhaps you could a url linking to the database or something similar?). Anyway, there is one place where I think you might need to add a secondary or a tertiary source to augment the primary sources, though:
    • the paragraph starting with "Cochrane embodied the ex-slaves as a Corps of Colonial Marines..." (where you use two primary sources for the whole paragraph). AustralianRupert (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
      • G'day, Keith, have you been able to find a secondary or tertiary source that backs up these primary sources? AustralianRupert (talk) 23:37, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
        • This has been fixed. AustralianRupert (talk) 10:18, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
• is there a reference for this: "(There was a historical precedent with Lord Dunmore's Proclamation of 7 November 1775, though this offered freedom only to those who undertook to bear arms with the British forces.)"  Done
• in the Notes, there are two bare url links (Notes 44 and 45), which would probably be better presented if embedded in some manner (for instance compare what you have done in Note 38);  Done
• the References are inconsistenty formatted. Compare Gleig with Agassiz for instance. I suggest using the {{cite book}} or {{cite journal}} templates for them as that will ensure that they are presented in the same format (manual formatting is also fine, so long as it is consistent);  Done
• in the References, the works that don't have ISBNs might have OCLC numbers that could be used to help readers locate the books. These can usually be found by searching on worldcat.org;  Done
• in the References, some of the works have publication locations and others don't. This information can also usually be found either in the book itself and/or on worldcat.org;  Done
• if you are wanting to take this further after the GA review, one suggestion I have is tidying up the Notes section a little. Some of the articles in this category might offer you some suggestions: Category:FA-Class military history articles (this is a suggestion only, and is not linked to the GA criteria)

• It is broad in its coverage.

  a (major aspects): b (focused):

• any information that is presented in the lead, should be discussed in the body of the article. For instance, I couldn't find mention in the body of the article of the information about the psychological threat posed by the raising of the force. Same also with the information about Woodbine and Nicolls being demonised in the Niles Register, and the information about the former auxilliary officers being executed in the Arbuthnot and Ambrister incident;  Done
• please add links such as "company", "battalion", "battery", "squadron" etc. (on first mention of the term);  Done
• the date of disbandment (20 August 1816) is only mentioned in the lead and the infobox: it should also be mentioned in the body. In this regard you could just change "The battalion was finally disbanded in August 1816" to "The battalion was finally disbanded on 20 August 1816";  Done
  • I added this myself. AustralianRupert (talk) 05:20, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
• do any of the sources say exactly how many men served in the corps, either in total or at its peak? Additionally, are there any total/consolidated figures for casualties? If so, I suggest adding maybe one or two sentences to this at the point in the article where you discuss the corps' disbandment.
• the image shows the corps' uniform; you might consider adding a couple of sentences to the article on this if it can be reliably sourced;
• did the corps receive any battle honours? If so, and if it can be reliably sourced, I suggest adding it in;
  • The names of the men of the Corps, who were on the pay/muster roll of the Battalion from 03 Sept to 31 Dec 1814, and present on the Atlantic Coast, have been transcribed, and can be found on the website of the UK National Archives. Royal Marine and Colonial Marine deaths in 1814 have been transcribed too. The casualties appear not only on the National Archives website, but also on the 1812casualties.org website too. As for the Colonial Marines on the Gulf Coast, they seem to have numbered around 400, and three sources have been cited which corroborate this figure.
  • The infobox lends itself considerably well to stating the battles where the Corps was present. Although the Corps does appear to have been a success, the powers that be would have downplayed the Corps. There were slaveowners in the West Indies who were every bit as uncomfortable with the existence of the Corps, as their slave-owning counterparts in Virginia. (Alexander Cochrane was a slaveowner, ironically). Issuing colours and battle honours - to a unit which was ostensibly temporrily set up for the duration of that particular conflict, would be an oxymoron. (Presumably the Jewish units in WW1 in Palestine were likewise denied battle honours? I believe this is the case for the Jewish Brigade in 1944 too.)Keith H99 (talk) 20:47, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
• is the unit perpetuated by any current unit? If not, what is its legacy? Are they largely forgotten, or do they form a significant part of Britain's and/or someone else's military history/collective memory etc.? If this can be reliably sourced, a brief mention of this should probably be added to final section of the article.  Done

• I found a little on this (about the annual celebrations), but nothing as yet on perpetuations etc. AustralianRupert (talk) 05:20, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

• this website has some information that you might be able to work into the article.  Done

• I added a little from this myself, but please take a look to see if there is anything else you think should be added. AustralianRupert (talk) 05:20, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

• It follows the neutral point of view policy.

  a (fair representation): b (all significant views):

• Seems ok, but I can't make a determination on this until other changes are made above.

• It is stable.

  No edit wars etc.:

• Seems fine in this regard.

• It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

  a (tagged and captioned): b (Is illustrated with appropriate images): c (non-free images have fair use rationales): d public domain pictures appropriately demonstrate why they are public domain:

• the caption of the image probably should be tweaked: "This would be a common sight at Tangier Island. On the battlefield, the red coat of the service uniform would be worn." --> "This was a common sight at Tangier Island, but on the battlefield, the red coat of the service uniform was worn."
• the image used seems appropriately licenced;  Done
• I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to add an image of Cochrane to the article, given his prominence in raising the unit. There appears to be a freely licenced version here: File:Alexander Cochrane.jpg (suggestion only). If you are to do this, though, you would probably need to play around with the positioning of the infoboxes and/or the other image etc. AustralianRupert (talk) 05:20, 3 February 2013 (UTC)  Done

• Overall:

  a Pass/Fail:

• There are a few points that need to be covered off on before the article can be promoted to GA. I will place the review on hold for seven days and await for a response. Of course, I'm happy to keep it on hold for a bit longer than that if it seems like progress is being made. Please feel free to ask any questions about my comments in the section below. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 23:51, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments/questions about the review

• G'day, Keith, your changes look quite good so far. I've looked over the article again this weekend and made a few changes myself (please review these and adjust if you don't agree with them). I've also crossed off what has been dealt with so far on the review and I've also added a couple more queries that have come to me as I read over it again. Could you let me know how you are getting on with the outstanding points? For me, the main ones that remain are those about the coverage (e.g. the information that is in the lead, but not in the body of the article, etc.), and having the article copy edited. If these points can be covered off on, the review can most probably be wrapped up. The review has been open around six days now, but I'd be more than happy to leave it open longer. It is Sunday where I am, and I will be quite busy next week at work, so I probably won't get to look at the review again until maybe next Thursday night at the earliest (next Saturday at the latest). Thoughts? AustralianRupert (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

• Hi Rupert. As you've seen, I've been able to make several changes based upon your recommendations. I've not been able to keep up the momentum on this, over this weekend, but it it my intention to make headway on this during the week. If it's possible to keep this open until, say, Friday, then all of the required work should be done by then. Thank you for the time you have given so far, and thank you for your courteous nature of communication. Keith H99 (talk) 20:36, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

• No worries, Keith, that's fine. I will come back on Saturday morning (probably busy Friday night). Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:22, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

• Hi Rupert. This seems to have taken over my life. If I am not at work, or asleep, then I am massaging this article. I have hit a stumbling block with regard the CITE NEWS templates for three sourced quotes from Niles' Register. Once this has been overcome, I can then approach a copy editor. It is very frustrating, as I am nearly there with the edits. Keith H99 (talk) 09:42, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• G'day, I believe that I've fixed the template issue. I also made a couple of other changes. Please check that you are happy with these. Also, please note, I've added a query above in the referencing section that I think you may have missed. I agree, though, engaging a copy editor now would make sense. Regarding keeping the review open, I'm more than happy with the progress, so I would be fine with leaving the review open another week if necessary. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 23:37, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• Hi Rupert. Thanks for your continued assistance. I have added a secondary source, and edited one of the Niles' Register links, so it is consistent with the others. The infobox works well; I didn't think they could be that flexible, hence my original preference for two separate boxes. I have submitted a request for a copy editor review, so hopefully this will be completed very soon. Cheers Keith H99 (talk) 08:49, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

• No worries, Keith, thanks for making those adjustments. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:18, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

• G'day, I have passed this article for GA now. Sorry it has taken so long. My suggestion for further improvement is to take it to peer review and then later Milhist A-class Review. As stated above, though, I suggest further copy editing before then. Thanks for your work on this article and your patience, Keith. All the best. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 23:50, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

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