Talk:Corpse-like obedience

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PrimalMustelid talk 17:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that zombie-like obedience is behavior attributed to Jesuits, military as well as followers of totalitarian regimes? Source: see footnotes but to help: Jesuts https://brill.com/display/book/edcoll/9789004280601/B9789004280601-s009.xml miliary https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/50/article/217099 totalitarian https://brill.com/display/book/9789004465053/BP000001.xml
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
  • Comment: Second QPQ: Template:Did you know nominations/Swift Orange Line. Zombi is not a common term but used in few sources, and I chose it for obvious hook interest generation; if it is a problem, just remove the pipe - I am ok with that. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:51, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Created by Piotrus (talk).

Number of QPQs required: 2. DYK is currently in unreviewed backlog mode and nominator has 501 past nominations.

Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC).

• Short but decent enough article, I don't see any outstanding article issues, although it might be overcited in some places; are all of those citations really needed? Sources checks out, and I'll respect "zombie-like" as a synonym even if it's not the most commonly used term. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 21:19, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTDICT

Should this phrase be an entry on Wiktionary instead? It's an idea or a descriptor, and the article does not show that it's a particularly significant one. In addition, the modern-day uses of the phrase are interesting, but I don't think they make for a full article nor does it all go beyond the quotations "that would be found in a dictionary entry. The origin info can be transferred to Wiktionary. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 04:04, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I came here to say the same. This is essentially a dictionary entry—a well-referenced one, but not suitable for WP. I also have concerns about WP:SYNTH—I don't see where RS ever explicitly link the various concepts of obedience to each other—it's more like various assorted times people really praised obedience. I see that the original German article was much less happy to directly link the Jesuit and Nazi concepts, let alone everything else. If this ever goes to AfD please ping me. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:13, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

A SYNTH article on the front page which criticizes Germany and the Soviet Union, while prominently citing Polish scholars in doing so. We've hit bingo here.--Catlemur (talk) 18:01, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. I've run into the concept of zombie-like obedience throughout the literature. Yes, it probably has a different, more clinical name, but it's a solid concept that deserves its own topic. Viriditas (talk) 21:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the article title should be moved to unconditional obedience, as "corpse-like obedience" refers to that idea. Viriditas (talk) 21:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Note, this is supported by the scholarly sources in English, which translate Kadavergehorsam as "unconditional obedience". I suggest we move the article to the common English name. Viriditas (talk) 22:19, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Note to my note: Historian Raffaele Laudani points out various ideas that run counter to "corpse-like obedience", one of which is Dietrich Bonhoeffer's concept of responsible disobedience. I think there's a lot of potential for this article given the corpus of research on both obedience and disobedience. Viriditas (talk) 22:30, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

As the creator, with a bit of experience in creating articles and notability and social sciences, I strongly believe the topic is notable, and the article has a lot of potential in expansion. Unfortunately, many relevant sources are in German, which is not a language I am fluent in. If anyone thinks this is not notable (i.e. not encyclopedic, or dictionary like), WP:AFD is always an option.

As for the name change, we can discuss it - the concept is translated to English in several variants, some literal (corpse...) some less so (unquestioning). I chose what I think meets WP:COMMONAME, but we can consider alternatives - I'd recommend a dedicated section. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:56, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Just a sample:

• István Deák (1968) refers to Kadavergehorsam as "unconditional obedience". (p. 57).[1]
• Hans Mommsen (1989) refers to the "obedience of the dead" (Kadavergehorsam) as "unconditional obedience". (pp. 18, 25)[2]
• Hamida Bosmajian (2013) refers to the slang term of "obedience of a corpse" (Kadavergehorsam) as meaning "absolute submission" and "unconditional obedience". (pp. 205, 269)[3]
• Daniel J. Hughes and R. L. DiNardo (2018) refer to Kadavergehorsam as "unconditional obedience". (p. 476)[4]

There's more. I think the primary topic should be unconditional obedience in English, with Kadavergehorsam discussed as a specific type and example. Viriditas (talk) 01:21, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas Thanks. I do not have strong feelings, but a sample is, well, a sample, and not representative. This Google Books search shows that there are many works that use Kadavergehorsam and translate it to English as "Corpse-like obedience". What we need is to consider which use is more popular. GBooks sadly does not provide easy to see estimates anymore :( However, GScholar does. Compare K+clo (30+ results) vs K+uo (just 5 results). This metric suggests that "Corpse-like obedience" is a more common translation than "unconditional obedience". _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:58, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I will leave this in your hands, my friend. I have a lot of other things to do. Viriditas (talk) 07:00, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas Well, I am not planning on working on this article further at this point (while acknowledging it needs further expansion); all I am saying is that I looked into the naming issue and I think the current name meets WP:COMMONNAME. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

In English, we don’t use "corpse-like" anything. Just FYI. Corpse is somewhat reserved for formal contexts like law enforcement, medical examiner, etc. Viriditas (talk) 07:38, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Tell it to the authors of dozens of publications who use this term. Some of them, presumably, are fluent in English. Ex. Gordon A. Craig (book page). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the disconnect here is in not acknowledging that "unconditional obedience" is used just about everywhere as the primary synonym and is considered common parlance. Look at how many times those terms are used on Wikipedia alone. Kadavergehorsam is one type of this kind of obedience, but nobody refers to it as "corpse-like obedience" like they do unconditional obedience. The other point is that in English, unconditional obedience is well known as a concept and doesn’t require any kind of specialized understanding; it’s common vernacular at this point. "Corpse-like obedience", on the other hand, is equivalent to a poor translation and is unlikely to be recognized by anyone outside of a small subset of specialists. That's my last comment on this matter. Viriditas (talk) 09:09, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: Can you start a requested move with the information you've found? Then we can come to a consensus. (I'd do so myself, but you're the one who can back up reasoning why it ought to be moved...) It may also be useful to add {{missing information}} to the article with your thoughts. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 17:18, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I just don’t have the energy for it. Raising the issue is about as far as I can go these days. I’ve been having some minor health issues so I’m trying to be active in a more focused and targeted manner. Piotrus does raise additional concerns below. Viriditas (talk) 07:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Clearly, "unconditional obedience" is a term that is more common in English, but it is often used in common parlance. I am not sure of the general use is the same as the more specialized one (Kadavergehorsam). And I'll also add that as for everyday English use, arguably "blind obedience" could be more popular (714,000 hits on Google vs 147,000 for "unconditional obedience"). But I am not sure whether blind obedience or unconditional obedience are 1) notable and 2) identical to the concept discussed here. As the creator, I'll note that my goal was to explain the term Kadavergehorsam, which is used in English (and other languages). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:09, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Understood, and you’ve done a great job. Viriditas (talk) 07:12, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Piotrus, if you'd like a hand with interpreting German sources, feel free to send them my way. Happy to help. Schwede66 02:31, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@Schwede66 I'll keep that in mind, although for this particular article I think I am done - I wanted to outline the topic for others to develop further, and move on :) _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

No trouble. Be in touch at any point if you think I can help. Schwede66 06:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Clarification

The following sentence is found in the article: "The concept has been said to Adolf Eichmann, one of the major organisers of the Holocaust, invoked this concept in his defence during his post-war trial." Someone familiar with the information should revise this sentence, as the phrase The concept has been said to... seems unclear -- who "said" the concept, and what is the grammatical relationship of the concept being said "to" Eichmann and the statement regarding Eichmann's defence in the second part of the sentence? 216.15.56.15 (talk) 06:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC)