Talk:Corvin Castle

external link

• Historical Text Archive

how does the above link add information to the article, besides the two photos and the 20 lines of text duplicating the information in this article ? Criztu 17:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

There is much more information in that page than in the article itself. If you compare only the quantity of information, there are 433 words vs 84 words. If you compare the article itself, there is interesting information about the previous ownership of the castle, the phases of construction and renovations, usage of the castle in various periods, details of the architecture and inscriptions on the castle. If there is bias in the page, that does not void the value of the information. Someone (not necessarily me or you) could incorporate all that information in the article (not by copying it directly, because that would be a copyright violation) and in that process, remove the bias, using a neutral point of view. However, after this is done, the link should continue to be kept in the references section, because of the policy of Wikipedia of citing sources. Razvan Socol 07:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

i think the other external link is far more richer in information. 2 pictures and 20 lines and a big link to Szekler lands indicates to me that this particular link is rather an invitation to read about a diferent topic Criztu 14:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggest using some of the pictures from the Romanian version of this article. They are much better quality than the image seen in current English version. I'm just not sure exactly how to use images accross different language version of Wikipedia. Can someone explain how to do that? Michał Kosmulski 09:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

You could save http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ro/f/f8/Hun_corv2.jpg to your computer and upload it to http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Hun_corv2.jpg with the {{PD}} template and http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagine:Hun_corv2.jpg as the source. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 05:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Please don't call Hunyadi János "Iancu de Hunedoara". His name is Hunyadi János (or János Hunyadi, according to the English order. János is John). Iancu de Hunedoara is his Romanian name, but it seems logic to me that if he lived in Hungary, "worked" in Hungary, his name sholud be spelled in Hungarian. I think that you can ask the Hungarian wikipedists to help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.186.61.154 (talk) 19:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move to Corvin Castle. I believe the consensus between these two dueling RMs is that (1). there should be a move from Hunyad Castle and (2). Of the proposed options, Corvin Castle is preferable. Cúchullain ^t/c 20:18, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

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Hunyad Castle → Hunedoara Castle – Per WP:COMMONNAME

More numerous Google Books results for the proposed title 239 vs 120 Transerd (talk) 07:03, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

First, please do not move a page without proper discussion. Initiate the move using the standard procedure (I see you just did it, thanks) and let other editors time to answer. Second, you should use Google Books results with great care. For example, "Castle of Hunedoara": 72 hits [1] vs. "Castle of Hunyad": 167 hits [2]. Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 12:10, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

It is not mandatory to ininiate a discussion if the move is not controversial. I moved the page by myself based on reason no.2 from Help:Moving_a_page#Reasons_for_moving_a_page. As it can be seen, I avoided a Wikipedia:Move war and I initiated a discussion just after I saw that the move is contested.

Another argument for the move is that Hunedoara is the modern name of the town where the castle is located, and the convention is semmingly to use modern names (see Bran Castle, Râșnov Citadel, Şimleu Silvaniei Fort, Bratislava castle, Trencin_Castle) Transerd (talk) 12:33, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per Google Book hits. --Norden1990 (talk) 12:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

What Google Books hits? Castle of Hunedoara + Hunedoaora Castle means 72 +239 = 311 results (including Encyclopædia Britannica), while Castle of Hunyad + Hunyad Castle means 120 + 167 = 297 results Transerd (talk) 12:36, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

If you add up the numbers (as you just did), then it is clear that arguing based on GB is not conclusive at all (if you know a bit of statistics, the difference between the two variants is not significant). This also means that arguing based on WP:COMMONAME is not valid here. On the other hand, I think that your and Adrian's new reasoning sounds plausible, since the castle is in Romania now and Hunedoara is its official name. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 13:09, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support - per Google results. Also if we look at the similar situations castles in Slovakia mentioned they are not Pozsonyi Vár but Bratislava Castle. Same principle here. Adrian (talk) 12:41, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, tentatively, because (unlike the one in Bratislava) the castle is named after the family, not the city. (The city is also named after the family, but that's another story.) Even in Romanian, it's known as the "castle of the Hunyads" or, using an alternate name of the family, the "castle of the Corvins" (see their official site and what the Romanian Culture Ministry calls it (p. 1342)).
• From what has been shown so far, it doesn't seem one usage clearly surpasses another in English, and certainly there are modern scholarly sources using the present title. - Biruitorul ^Talk 16:09, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Your arguments are invalid. "The city is also named after the family" - you are messing up things here. The name of the family comes from the name of the settlement (in modern Hungarian Vajdahunyad, in the past just Hunyad)[3]

The Latin name of John Hunyadi was Ioannes de Hunyad (John from Hunyad). Also the Hungarian version of the family name ("Hunyadi") comes from Hunyad Castle in Transylvania. The Hungarian suffix -i means from (of) [4], consequently Hunyadi means of (from) Hunyad - just like the name Bela Lugosi means Bela from Lugos.

We are not concerned with the name in other languages, we care only about the most used name in English sources (By the way,in Hungarian the name of the castle is Vajdahunyad vára, which means the castle of Vajdahunyad (Hunedoara))

It is true that one usage doesn't clearly surpass another in English, but that does not mean that we must not choose the title that is a little more used Transerd (talk) 16:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Dear Transerd, the problem is exactly that, based on the GB searches above, you *cannot* draw the conclusion that "Hunedoara Castle" is "a little more used" than "Hunyad Castle", since the statistical significance of the result is low, i.e., if we consider the database of GB as a random sample of all the books in the world, it may very well be that the result, according to which "Hunedoara Castle" got more hits, merely happened by chance (since the difference between the numbers is quite low)... KœrteFa {ταλκ} 16:15, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Hunyad Castle → Corvin Castle or Corvins' Castle – Per WP:COMMONNAME

1. Google Books Ngram Viewer - Corvin vs Hunyad vs Hunedoara

2.

Query	Google	Bing	Google Books
Corvin Castle -wikipedia	517,000	36,300	2,880
Hunedoara Castle -wikipedia	517,000	13,500	1,990
Hunyad Castle -wikipedia	61,100	6,060	1,550

• Support - Based on these results, it seems Corvin is much more common than Hunyad; perhaps this is due the universality of Latin language. -- Saturnian (talk) 17:58, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - This can be a compromise solution between the Romanian-originating and the Hungarian-originating name Transerd (talk) 18:19, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - per explained results. Adrian (talk) 00:31, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I am a bit confused. "Corvin" (comes from the Latin word for "raven") is a general word that is used in many other contexts than this castle. What do the above results measure exactly? If I simply search GB for the word "Corvin Castle", I get only 85 hits [5]... Nevertheless, I like the general idea and it seems like an acceptable compromise. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 16:25, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Corvin word is not as general as Latin word corvus. Saturnian (talk) 08:43, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment I took a look on the official site of the castle and the used names are Corvin Castle: [6] [7] [8] and Corvins’ Castle: [9] Transerd (talk) 08:37, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - per Transferd's comment. But, first, you have to withdraw your reqeusted move, because now there are two such requests. --Norden1990 (talk) 12:39, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment However Corvins' Castle looks like a better name, since it is a precise translation of the current Romanian name "Castelul Corvinilor" Transerd (talk) 14:22, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

For me Corvins' Castle or Corvin Castle it's the same. -- Saturnian (talk) 20:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Corvins' Castle refers to the Corvins (the Corvin family - (Hunyadi family). The term is also used by historians [10] [11] Transerd (talk) 09:13, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Information Removals and POV edits

The original first paragraph was:

• Corvin Castle was built by King Charles I of Hungary, after his visit in Temesvár (Timişoara), Kingdom of Hungary (now Romania), in 1307. The King decided to set up residence there. The building, probably built by Italian builders, was finished in 1315 and in 1316 the King was already established in the new castle, where he lived almost eight years. The last document signed by him in Temesvár (Timişoara) dated June 15, 1323. In 1409, the castle was given to John Hunyadi's father, Voyk, by Sigismund, king of Hungary, as severance.

but it was replace by Crista303 with:

• Corvin Castle (or Hunyadi Castle or Corvinesti Castle in Hunedoara, Romania) was laid out in 1446, when construction began at the orders of Iancu de Hunedoara (English John Hunyadi), who wanted to transform a former keep built by Charles I of Hungary in 1307,offered as severance to his father in 1409. At the time, Iancu was regent of the Kingdom of Hungary.

He stated that: "this version of the article is well documented and is more precise. The Romanian article is almost the same. Key change: the person who ordered the castle to e built is Iancu de Hunedoara (John Hunyadi). Before then, it was just a keep"

I fail to see why would it be "more precise" as all he did was to remove a lot of information (especially those which connect the castle to the Kingdom of Hungary) and used the POV name "Iancu de Hunedoara" instead of "John Hunyadi". It is uncertain whether John Hunyadi was more "Iancu de Hunedoara" or "János Hunyadi". Romanian sources prefer the first variant, while Hungarian ones use the second. However, *English* sources use the neural "John Hunyadi", so we should use it on Wikipedia, as well. I have restored the original first paragraph as it contained valuable information which was deleted. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 19:53, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Koertefa, I am afraid you are mistaken. Carol Robert D'Anjou (aka Charles I of Hungary) has indeed built a castle in which he lived for 8 years, but in Timisoara. this is a well known fact, you can find it anywhere on the internet. In fact, here is one source which I found more reliable, because it is written by an academic (I trust you speak Romanian, but there will always be google translate)(page 68, second paragraf) : http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VNUKHbeLwpAC&pg=PA68&dq=carol+d'anjou+timisoara&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rCJSUafHEOOl0AW84YDoCg&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=carol%20d'anjou%20timisoara&f=false

Please also verify the source you have given, as I am more then certain that the same data will be reproduced.

It is assumed that the keep that stood on the grounds of the nowadays Hunyadi Castle in Hunedoara was also built at the orders of Charles I, because, well, he was the king and it was an important strategic position.

As a result, I will be rewriting the beggining of the article to reflect this (so I will be deleting the fact that Carol D'Anjou lived there, as it is clearly a mistake).

I, however, agree to change Iancu de Hunedoara to John Hunyadi, as this is a British English page. User:crista303 22:50, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, crista303, of your answer. I will take a look at the sources about the issue you have mentioned (Charles I's castle). I also ask you not to remove referenced statements without giving proper explanation. Unfortunately, I don't speak Romanian, but I would be glad if you could translate some sentences from the source you gave, which support your argument (I think that Google Translate does not work in Google Books). Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ}

20:30, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Koertefa, you can surely copy some sentences into google translate. It's good practice. (Crista303, 30/03/2013, 17:37 GMT)

History

The third paragraph in the History section needs re-working, as it repeats some of the information from the preceding paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.52.96.14 (talk) 17:46, 4 August 2015 (UTC)