Talk:Creationism/What is wrong with the lead section

What is wrong with the lead section of Creationism?

<<Actually, I wasn't describing my beliefs, I was trying to describe creationist beliefs.>>

In my opinion, the fundamental logical flaw in this approach is basing your investigation on "belief." Hypothesis: To start an encyclopedia article with "Xism is the belief that . . . " will always fail to produce a good encyclopedia page. You might start paging through your virtual Encyclopaedia Britannica for a counter-example to the above hypothesis--looking for a "good" encyclopedia page that begins with what I am asserting is an irredeemably flawed first sentence "Xism is the belief that . . . ." You may find what you think is a counter-example encyclopedia page, and of course I will contend that that encyclopedia page is not "good." :) It is like beginning an encyclopedia page with the first sentence: "Ten is the odd number that . . . ."

The first sentence of a "good" encyclopedia page on "creationism" should describe what "creationism" is--not what "creationism" believes. For example, you might begin a "good" encyclopedia page with "Communism is a system of political and economic organization in which . . ." or you might begin a "good" encyclopedia page with "Creationism is the theory that . . . ."

I leave it for the reader to derive the general logical constraint that produces a "bad" encyclopedia page from the first sentence of the form "Xism is the belief that . . . ." ---Rednblu 15:29, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

But is there really anything wrong with saying that creationism is a belief if that's what it is? "Communism is a system..." is appropriate because it is a system, not a belief. You can be a believer in communism, or a believer in creation, but not a believer in creationism, because creationism is the belief in creation.

I want to have a good look at this article, but have not done so yet because I wanted to wade through the nine pages of talk before I change too much. But as well as this article on creationism, there is also an article on Creation and another on Young Earth creationism, as well as other origins views. What should go where, and whether we need all these, are also issues that should be addressed, but presumably this article is about the belief rather than the origins model of creation, or what is often known as Creation Science. Perhaps this article should say little more than "Creationism is the belief in Biblical Creation" and put the rest under the latter (or similar) article?

Philip J. Rayment 16:37, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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<<But is there really anything wrong with saying that creationism is a belief if that's what it is?>>

Let me illustrate the problem with the current first sentence to the Creationism page.

Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible.

If everyone agreed to that sentence, then there would be no problem with that first sentence. The difficulty is that, to make that sentence correct, over half of the people on this earth would have to change the words that follow "Creationism is the belief that . . . ." We could take a poll to pin down the statistics that I imply in "over half of the people."

As it is now, most people who explain their existence as divine creation have beliefs that violate the phrase "as described in the Bible"--because most people who explain their existence as divine creation believe that some form of speciation fomed H. sapiens and that is not "as described in the Bible," but rather "as described in" Darwin's, Origin of Species. Again, we could take lots of polls to pin down the statistics I imply by phrases like "most people who. . . ."

I don't really think you mean that Creationism is just a belief. It is also a political movement, it is a controversy, it is the basis of a way of life, it is a basis for moral systems, etc.

And the professional encyclopedias recognize the entirety of what "creationism" is in the lead sentence. Consult any professional encyclopedia. Creationism is not just a belief, it is a . . . . ---Rednblu 18:36, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I totally agree that "as described in the bible" is much too narrow, and could be changed to, perhaps, "as described in some creation myth" or some such (I would like to hear your suggestion).

But I am unclear as to your point here, is the the word "belief" that you're objecting to, or the phrase "as described in the bible"? As for whether creationism is only belief or a belief and other stuff too, what difference does that make? The sentence doesn't say "just a belief" it just says "belief", and all that other stuff (morality, etc) can't really be mentioned in a single sentence, and doesn't really need to be, since those things are often associated with beliefs, and therefore can probably be assumed by the reader. So what exactly is it that you are proposing about that word "belief"?-lethe ^talk

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What difference does that make? you ask. I would say it is only a matter of accuracy--as long the words model somewhat closely what is going on in reality. At first, "belief" seemed to me to be the right word. To me, "creationism" is a belief that some people have. But then I saw that so many people disagreed with what followed the phrase "Creationism is the belief that . . . ." So then it seemed to me that it would be nearly impossible to make an accurate statement that would model reality, beginning with "Creationism is the belief that . . . ."; it doesn't matter whether you put the Bible into that definition or not, it still will not model reality. I assume that an encyclopedia would like to model the "reality" of what people have thought, said, and done.

So then I explored how the hardcopy encyclopedias have introduced the whole host of "beliefs"--the -isms. I found in the hardcopy encyclopedias the following:

Theism is "the view that . . . "
Atheism is "the critique and denial of . . . "
Agnosticism is "the doctrine that . . . "
Fundamentalism is "the conservative movement arising out of the . . ."
Fatalism is "the view that . . . "

The textual structure here is that view, critique, doctrine, and movement are all abstractions that you can define outside of the believer's head. They are defined before "belief"; belief is what someone might have in the view, critique, doctrine, or movement. I found it interesting that Britannica starts the "creationism" entry with

Creationism is "the theory that . . . "

With that kind of beginning, the article can lay out the variations in the "theory." The "theory" can have a political influence. The "theory" can be criticized as having more causes than it needs, or the "theory" can be proven wrong. And of course, some people have a belief in the theory and some people don't. It is merely a question of accuracy of the encyclopedia article in modeling reality. ---Rednblu 23:27, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Please don't expect too much support from the word "theory" here. The topic of creationism touches upon the topic of biological science; within science, the term "theory" has a rather specific meaning. It does not mean "view" or "proposal". In a scientific context, the word means that a system of knowledge has substantial evidential basis; thus, to call creationism a theory is, here, to favor it as science. This is, of course, the POV of creation scientists, and so would lean the article toward that viewpoint. —FOo 02:46, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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I understand your political turf explanation quite well. It is nothing more sophisticated than our inherited chimpanzee politics. Reality be damned; what counts is holding the political turf. I'm not even objecting. I'm just pointing out that in fact, "Creationism is a theory . . . ." I understand that currently in Wikipedia, the evolutionist censors will not allow the truth be told. But if you look outside Wikipedia at reality, there are many kinds of theory other than scientific theory; there is wage theory and auteur theory and location theory and tricellular theory and creationist theory none of which even claim to be a science. At least all of those non-scientific theories are "explanations" that serve quite adequately for what science cannot even begin to handle. Just because some lame-brain religious zealot devised the brilliant chimpanzee politics trick of faking up creationism to be a science does not justify ignoring the reality of what "creationism" is. ---Rednblu 05:18, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, sure, if you are trying to start a fight (as your use of expressions like "evolutionist censors" and "lame-brain religious zealots" suggests) then it's a great choice of words. The Usenet newsgroup talk.origins is a much more entertaining place to have a fight about creationism than Wikipedia is, though. —FOo 06:40, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Let me rephrase if you will.

I understand your political turf explanation quite well. It is nothing more sophisticated than our inherited chimpanzee politics. Reality be damned; what counts is holding the political turf. I'm not even objecting. I'm just pointing out that in fact, "Creationism is a theory . . . ." I understand that currently in Wikipedia, many will not support the use of the word theory that differs from the way that the word theory is used in biological science. But if you look outside Wikipedia at reality, there are many kinds of theory other than scientific theory; there is wage theory and auteur theory and location theory and tricellular theory and creationist theory none of which even claim to be a science. At least all of those non-scientific theories are "explanations" that serve quite adequately for what science cannot even begin to handle. Just because some creationist strategist devised the brilliant chimpanzee politics trick of faking up creationism to be a science does not justify ignoring the reality of what "creationism" is. ---Rednblu 06:58, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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People are right to object. While creationism is a theory, in practice it's paired up with evolution that to call it that is confusing. Besides, other similar things aren't usually described as theories anyways (e.g. most are described as stories rather than historical events even though people believe in them). As such, some other synonym is preferrable. I don't know why you object to the term belief, which does a good job summing up other positions like theism, atheism, etc, but there are plenty of other words that could be used. Idea, view, and position come to mind.

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<<I don't know why you object to the term 'belief'>>

I object to "Creationism is a belief that ..." in the same sense that I would object to "A mammal is four legs that ...." Even allowing for some whales having the vestigial hind legs, "four legs" does not capture the functional essence of "mammal" very well. The flaw in "Creationism is a belief that ..." is that it does not model reality very well in representing what "creationism" is. Let me state the following Hypothesis: The political drawing power of "creationism" is that creationism looks to uneducated people like a theory that explains how people got here on this earth. This is the standard anthropological interpretation of why people gravitate to creationism. [1] ---Rednblu 07:56, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Fair enough. Any objections to Creationism is the position that...?

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No. In common parlance, position would be a little vague--as if settling the issue would be a matter settled by vote. But position would settle the algebraic inconsistency of using belief to stand for two totally different thinge 1) the "story" believed and 2) the act of belief. The belief page has it right: "Belief is assent to a proposition." ---Rednblu 17:19, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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On the "belief" issue, I was assuming that an "ism" is, essentially, a belief (or a set of beliefs, perhaps). However, Mirriam-Webster Onlinedoesn't actually give that definition, instead defining "ism" as a distinctive doctrine, cause, or theory. I still don't really have a problem with the word "belief", but I am happy for something else to be substituted. I would probably go for "view", which incidentally was used twice in Rednblu' list of examples, but I'm open to "doctrine" or other possibilities.

On the issue of "as described in the Bible", I think I see where you are coming from, Rednblu, having now read most of the nine pages of talk (whew!). If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting/claiming that the term creationism is applicable to anybody who believes in a divine creator (or something like that), regardless of whether or not they follow/accept the biblical narrative. On this I would disagree. Sure, the term could be used to describe non-biblical views of creation, but is that the way that it is normally used? As mentioned by others in the earlier discussion, most dictionaries do refer to the Bible or Genesis in defining the word.

As for the comparison with "A mammal is four legs that...", again I think I see your point, that "belief" (or any of the other terms that have been suggested?) don't explain creationism well enough. I'm a bit ambivalent on this at the moment, but I'm not convinced that the analogy is correct. Perhaps you could propose some alternative wording so that we can better see where you want this to go.

Actually, I don't really like the third sentence of the introduction ("However, not all..."), as it appears awkward and rather pointless.
Philip J. Rayment 12:31, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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<<If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting/claiming that the term creationism is applicable to anybody who believes in a divine creator (or something like that), regardless of whether or not they follow/accept the biblical narrative. On this I would disagree.>>

I do believe that the empirical evidence supports the following Hypothesis: Out of all the people of this earth who believe that divine creation put them here, only a very small fraction believe that the divine creation followed the biblical narrative. I have no personal preference that all of those people would 1) follow or 2) not follow the biblical narrative. Isn't this just a question of fact--comparing statistically what 1) people say about the divine creation that put them here versus the 2) biblical narrative?

Let's not worry for now about whether "belief" is appropriate. The resolution of that issue, in my opinion, is a huge political problem within the whole camp of evolutionists, of which I am one. That is, in my opinion, fixing the "belief" problem in the Creationism page is a long-term process of getting the evolutionists to deal with reality. If you think "belief" is good-enough, let's stay with "belief" for now. ---Rednblu 17:19, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Just to comment on belief a bit more, a belief doesn't have to be an airy-fairy thing that has no connection to reality. We believe, for example, that if we sit on a chair, it will hold our weight, based on the experience that we have with sitting on chairs previously.

As for what should come under the heading of "creationism", the following articles could be instructive, although personally I wouldn't take everything this author says at face value: [2] [3] [4] Philip J. Rayment 15:30, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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We've discussed the topic of creationism: theory/belief/hypothesis/etc.? at length previously here: Talk:Creationism/Is_Creationism_a_theory.

A hypothesis or conjecture requires the following to qualify as a theory:

is consistent with pre-existing theory to the extent that the pre-existing theory was experimentally verified, though it will often show pre-existing theory to be wrong in an exact sense,

is supported by many strands of evidence rather than a single foundation, ensuring that it probably is a good approximation if not totally correct,

has survived many critical real world tests that could have proven it false,

makes predictions that might someday be used to disprove the theory, and is the best known explanation, in the sense of Occam's Razor, of the infinite variety of alternative explanations for the same data,

Creationism clearly does not qualify as a theory. Barring any additional credible proof that it is indeed a theory, then it remains in the realm of belief, or conjecture at best. It seems some are bent on getting a second- and third bite at the apple on this point.--FeloniousMonk 17:42, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC) --- Sure. You have expressed exactly my particular point-of-view; that is how I want to use the word theory; that is how I have trained myself to use the word theory. But that point-of-view is not how most people use the English word theory. Just take for example what most people mean by "domino theory." That is, most people use "theory" not to mean scientific method; but rather to mean an organization of knowledge that explicitly names assumptions, accepted principles, and rules to explain the knowledge--with no requirement for verifiability.

Just because scientists use a term of art in a particularly peculiar though very useful way does not justify censoring how most people use the term. For example, the word work has a very peculiar though very useful meaning in physics, but the usefulness of that term of art in physics does not justify censoring how people use the word work in the phrase "right-to-work laws."
Just because the previous edit war ended up with the evolutionists getting their bigoted view of theory enforced throughout Wikipedia does not prevent correcting the Creationism page today to reflect reality accurately. ---Rednblu 18:20, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Since we are in essence talking about creationism's relation to scientific explanations of the same phenomena, we should use the definition of theory as it applies to science, regardless of the existence of a less rigorous definition used in common speech outside of science. Particularly considering that the word "theory" is hardly a term-of-art or jargon as you imply, nor is it's use by scientists "peculiar." The point is, calling creationism a theory creates a false impression as to its validity as an explanation for matters that are also (and better) addressed by science.

The current opening paragraph identifying creationism as a belief does reflect reality. Creationism fails to qualify as anything more than a belief since it: 1) is inconsistent with any pre-existing theory that has withstood verification experimentally or in reality, 2) is not supported by any credible evidence but rather rests on a single foundation of magical thinking, 3) cannot be verified or tested, but must be accepted on faith, leaving it open to unresolvable disputes regarding interpretation and its nature, 4) makes no predictions that might someday be used to prove or disprove its claim, or those of any of the alternative explanations for the same data.

Are you seriously claiming that "bigoted evolutionists" have managed to enforce their strictly POV content in the wikipedia theory article, or are you just being ironic here? --FeloniousMonk 21:48, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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<<considering that the word "theory" is hardly a term-of-art or jargon as you imply, nor is its use by scientists "peculiar.">>

Ok. Would you say that the "domino theory" applies the

definition of theory as used by scientists or the
Encyclopædia Britannica definition of "theory"? ---Rednblu 22:55, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Your point about which usage of theory in the phrase Domino Theory is a non sequitur; if we are to maintain more than just a pretense of intellectual rigor and stringency in wikipedia, then of we must insist on equally rigorous definitions. As are found at our own theory article, for which there is no reason to abandon here. I'm not surprised Britannica uses a lax interpretation of theory in this particular instance, considering that they are in the business of selling books and subscriptions. Why would they alienate over an intellectual subtlety the significant percentage of the potential market who'd be offended to find their personal objects of faith are not legitimate theories with some parity to actual science? Their customers might even insist on redefining the term theory then...

What constitutes a theory is sufficiently well defined for everyone except those whose beliefs don't get a place at the table. Special pleadings here for redefining what constitutes theory have already been declined, as you apparently already know.--FeloniousMonk 07:23, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

--- Restatement of Hypothesis: The evolutionists on Wikipedia enforce a censorship on Wikipedia from a bigoted and parochial view of theory that contradicts the general usage of the English word "theory".

<<Your point about which usage of theory in the phrase Domino Theory is a non sequitur; if we are to maintain more than just a pretense of intellectual rigor and stringency in wikipedia, then of we must insist on equally rigorous definitions.>>

Thank you for your example in support of my hypothesis. No need to reply; typical misuse of facts, logic, and grammar. ---Rednblu 17:04, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC) ---

I don't think you're going to get too far with either that tone or that reasoning. You are making a special pleading for an exception to the standard definition of theory, plain and simple. Theory is well defined on wikipedia, and it is consistent with the common usage in science, and I've presented a plausible explanation for Britannica's misuse of the phrase. Just because Britannica is wrong does not mean that we should be too. You could produce supporting facts to further make your case for an exceptional use of the term theory instead of ranting and alleging an "evolutionist" conspiracy, which is virtually guaranteed to get you nowhere.

If you have a problem with how wikipedia defines theory, I'd normally say take it to RFC or even through the dispute resolution process, but since the current theory article is actually the product of that already, I'll say you should probably just get used to the fact that your opinion on the matter is not mainstream. Also, your allegations of my misuse of facts, logic and grammar, remains as unsupported as your claim that theory is incorrectly defined here and that there's an "evolutionist" plot on wikipedia to deny you your special pleading.--FeloniousMonk 17:48, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Obviously there is a dispute whether creationism is a theory. One side says it is, one side says it isn't. Therefore it would be a violation of NPOV to start the article with "Creationism is the theory that...". The obvious solution, for me, is to start with "Creationism is the belief that...", then say that "creation scientists" claim it is also a theory. Hob 17:44, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)

No price for good style, but another possibility would be:

Creationism is the theory, however not in the scientific understanding of "theory", that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible.

Pjacobi 21:44, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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I disagree with this solution. Calling creationism a theory, even in a relaxed, vernacular form, when it fails to meet any of the criteria of an actual theory, is misleading and confusing to readers, who would first have to understand the nuance. Also, as long as creationists consistently insist their belief is an alternative to scientific explanations for the universe's origin, not to mention consistently insisting that such science is wrong and/or flawed, their belief should then have to meet the same standard as any other explanation for the origin of the cosmos if they want it to be taken as an credible alternative explanation.

The correct solution is to call reader's attention the fact some creationism proponents insist that their beliefs qualify as theories and outline the criticisms of those claims.--FeloniousMonk 04:50, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Arrgh! I forgot to put this page on my watch list. A bit of catching up here...
<<Creationism clearly does not qualify as a theory.>>
I am not pushing for using the word theory', but some things need to be said here (although I just know I'm going to regret this).

I have previously said that I am happy to use belief, but now have second thoughts. Just as theory means different things to different people (scientific vs. non-scientifice, for example), so does belief. To me, a belief is an understanding of something that may or may not be provable. For example, I believe that most scientists are evolutionists. Does anybody want to dispute that belief? But for others, belief is something divorced from reality, as in "that's not a fact, just a belief". Using it that way, I reject the word belief in this article.
If Creationism clearly does not qualify as a theory, then neither does (goo-to-you) evolution. Evolution is a set of explanations about the past to explain how the present came to be. So is creation. The past cannot be observed nor replicated; therefore evolution has not been observed nor replicated, any more than creation has. (NOTE: Both evolution and creation incorporate natural selection, although each uses it in a slightly different way; it is not natural selection that I am talking about here.)
To elaborate, and take FeloniousMonk's criteria for a theory,

Evolution was inconsistent with the pre-existing theory (creation). Creation had been accepted scientifically at the time.
Evolution is not supported by any credible evidence but rather rests on a foundation of magical thinking, specifically that order can come from disorder for no reason.
Evolution cannot be verified or tested, but must be accepted on faith, leaving it open to unresolvable disputes regarding interpretation and its nature. This is due to its nature as a series of unique past events that were not observed and cannot be replicated.
Creation makes predictions that might someday be used to prove or disprove its claim. For example, creation predicts a lack of transitional fossils (between major groups), which is what is found.
Evolution makes few predictions that might someday be used to prove or disprove its claim. For example, Darwin predicted the discovery of lots of transitional fossils, but when they failed to materialise, the theory was not discarded, but altered to argue that transitional fossils should not be expected in significant numbers.

On a slightly different note, I am frequently amused by people arguing that:

Creation was falsified 150 years ago.
Creation is not scientific because it is not falsifiable.

So which is it really?
Philip J. Rayment 04:24, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Don't worry, we're equally amused by anyone that thinks creationism could ever be tested...

Based on your comments here and at Talk:Intelligent_design, I'm inclined to agree with Graft's comments to you at Talk:Intelligent_design: it's clear you neither understand the basic undelying science you address here, nor the scientific method. --FeloniousMonk 05:27, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So rather than actually address what I wrote, you dismiss me as an ignoramus. At least in my description of how evolution does not meet your criteria for a theory, I explained how it didn't with examples, unlike your description which merely assumes that creation doesn't meet the criteria. Do you care to actually get down to specifics? How, for example, does one observe and replicate the evolution of reptiles into birds? It is not falsifiable. Philip J. Rayment 06:32, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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As I've said before, I will not be drawn into sideline debates on peripheral topics. I'm only here to address the matters at hand: editing wikipedia in an equitable and accurate fashion. If you want to debate evolution vs. creationism, there are articles with their own discussions for that. You've made enough errors of fact, logic, and method that your understanding of the science of the topic, and science in general are suspect, and I see no benefit to be gained from arguing points barely related to the matter at hand with someone who is unable to discern a correct argument from one in error.

The point being discussed here is whether identifying creationism as a theory in the opening sentence of the article is accurate and I will only discuss that topic here. I say calling it a theory is not accurate, indeed it is misleading.--FeloniousMonk 07:01, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You introduced the "sideline debate" by dogmatically expressing you POV that creation is not a scientific theory. I was not arguing for using the word "theory", and Rednblu was not arguing for using in a scientific sense, but you still thought it relevant to put your POV on whether or not it can be used that way.

<<I say calling it a theory is not accurate, indeed it is misleading.>>

I say calling it a theory is not NPOV. If you want to agree with and leave it at that, then fine. But you are going further and arguing your POV that "it is not a theory". I was debating that because you introduced that debate.

<<it's clear you neither understand the basic undelying science you address here, nor the scientific method. --FeloniousMonk>>

<<Insults, implied or overt, are neither welcome nor in the spirit of wikipedia.--FeloniousMonk>>

Hmmm!

Philip J. Rayment 23:23, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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The fact that creationism is not a scientific theory is not my POV, it is the official position of the majority of the relevant scientific community, as stated by the National Academy of Sciences, The American Association for the Advancement of Sciences, The Geophysical Union and nearly every other eminent scientific organization... I am merely advocating their position. Creationists continually insisting (as you have) that their beliefs are a credible alternative explanation to those of science mandates that the use of the word theory in relation to creationism be consistent with how it is used in science. Additionally, any claim that equity demands balanced treatment of evolutionary theory and creationism as equally credible explanations of our origin reflects a profound misunderstanding of what science is and how it is conducted.

My observation that it seems you do not understand the science behind evolution or the scientific method is shared by others elsewhere as well and was not intended as an insult; the difference between an insult and an observation is a point that should be apparent to those who insist on using nuanced definitions here.

That you continually insist on interjecting sidelines about evolution and other peripheral topics here is your own doing, I have not done that nor am I responsible for you doing so as you stated.--FeloniousMonk 02:19, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

<<The fact that creationism is not a scientific theory is not my POV,>>

I never said that it was exclusively your POV. But it is a point of view that you apparently agree with.

<<...it is the official position of the majority of the relevant scientific community,...>>

Yes, the majority. There is also a significant minority that have a different point of view.

<<Additionally, any claim that equity demands balanced treatment of evolutionary theory and creationism as equally credible explanations of our origin reflects a profound misunderstanding of what science is and how it is conducted.>>

That, also, is your point of view. It is, also, a majority point of view amongst academia. It is not the only point of view, even amongst academia.

<<...was not intended as an insult;>>

I'll accept that it wasn't intended that way, but telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about, I do find insulting. Frankly, I don't think that you know what you are talking about, but I say that merely so that you will experience what it is like to be on the receiving end of such an "observation". If you want to tell me that I don't know what I am talking about, tell me, specifically, where I am wrong.

<<That you continually insist on interjecting sidelines about evolution and other peripheral topics here is your own doing, I have not done that nor am I responsible for you doing so as you stated.>>

So you can say something like "creation is not scientific", and I am not allowed to debate the point? Because that is what I was doing--debating the claim that you made.

Philip J. Rayment 02:51, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If your are as knowledgable on the topic as you claim then I should not have to tell you here that when I wrote "Additionally, any claim that equity demands balanced treatment of evolutionary theory and creationism as equally credible explanations of our origin reflects a profound misunderstanding of what science is and how it is conducted." I was not stating only my own opinion as you insist here, but I am citing nearly verbatim the official position of the National Academy of Sciences regarding the validity, or invalidity more accurately, of creationism as a putative scientific theory.[5]

Both the terms "scientific" and "theory" have been sufficiently well defined on these pages and it has been repeatedly shown here how creationism fails to qualify as an actual part of science. Additionally, to this end, references have been given showing that the majority of the scientific community and the eminent organizations thereof do not consider creationism science or theory; that you willfully refuse to accept that does not change the fact.

This dialog has turned unproductive and I suggest we end it. You are entitled to your views, but you are not entitled to redefine ours or what is considered science. It's time to put this particular discussion to rest.--FeloniousMonk 05:37, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

<<I was not stating only my own opinion as you insist here>>

Did you properly read what I wrote? I said, "It is, also, a majority point of view amongst academia." How do you read that as me insisting that it was only your opinion?

<<it has been repeatedly shown here how creationism fails to qualify as an actual part of science.>>

I don't believe that it has been shown. It has been claimed, but not shown. In any case, my point was that creation is just as scientific as evolution. That is, perhaps creation is not scientific, but if so evolution is not either. That point has not been addressed, other than perhaps to quote majority views.

<<references have been given showing that the majority of the scientific community and the eminent organizations thereof do not consider creationism science or theory; that you willfully refuse to accept that does not change the fact.>>

Again, you haven't really read what I have said. I have willingly acknowledged that your POV is also the majority POV at least among the scientific/academic community. But it is still a point of view.

Philip J. Rayment 23:29, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What Points-of-View should get "air-time" on the Creationism page?

It seems to me that our struggle here is a valid one. We are attempting to define among ourselves what points-of-view should be allowed to make statements on the Creationism page. The final constructive outcome of our struggles here would be a list of the allowed points-of-view. Here are some of the points of friction that we have encountered so far.

There is a question of whether a science view should be allowed to dictate such things as the definition of theory, particularly when the subject of "creationism" has deep roots in history, which often has been at odds with science.
Here is a short list of the points-of-view that think they have something to say about "creationism." Some of these points-of-view may have more relevance to "creationism" than science.
- Philosophy -- looking at the types of epistemology operating within creationism.
- Ethics -- particularly taking into consideration, for example, Tom Paine's and Thomas Jefferson's view of the importance for the society to worship the Creator in the right way.
- Faith -- Many parts of creationism do not depend on proof or logical consistency.
- Competitiveness -- There are several published scholars who have analyzed the political dynamics of the creationism versus evolutionism debate and interpreted it as mere "power dynamics" -- which would-be alpha male can get the other alpha males to bow to him.
- Anthropology -- Particularly, looking at the elements of creationism that are required to give the satisfaction of "explaining enough."

Approaching the problem of making a great Creationism page from this angle, we might make a list of the points-of-view in the current Creationism page--and then see what points-of-view would need to be added to make that great Creationism page. ---Rednblu 05:42, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think your approach to and framing of this particular question is flawed. In a very real way we as wikipedians don't get to "define what points-of-view should be allowed to make statements on the Creationism page" as you say. The points that should be addressed are the ones that are relevant to describing accurately and concisely creationism, and they are already determined. The Creationism article should be an accurate and concise description of creationism and its status in society; nothing more and nothing less. Most have stated here and on the main discussion page it it does that already. Further, neither you nor I own the article or the debate, so I don't think creating your proposed "a list of the allowed points-of-view" is in the spirit or the best interest of wikipedia, it smacks of censorship and power grabbing. I would oppose it, as attempting to control knowledge in such a manner is anti-wikipedia and likely to fail. Continual attempts by self-appointed minders to redefine and restructure the debate will only smack of POVism, as some have discovered.

Addressing your individual points and suggestion here:

Whether a science view should be allowed to dictate the definition of theory: This is a non-starter. There is and has been historically a majority consensus on this article that creationism is a belief, not a theory in any meaningful sense of the word. As long as creationists continually insist that their beliefs are a credible alternative explanation to those of science the use of the word theory in relation to creationism must be consistent with how it is used in science. You'll have to make the case that history has indeed been at odds with science before you can adopt this new position.

As for your short list:

- Philosophy -- addressing the types of epistemology operating within creationism seems reasonable, but might be better suited to a new article dedicated to The Philosophy of Creationism.

- Ethics -- being a subset of philosophy this is only marginally relevant here, particularly content that explores historical figure's religious beliefs. It is better suited to the proposed new page, Philosophy of Creationism.

- Faith -- You are correct, most elements of creationism are appeals to faith or authority, not observed data. This is already pointed out in the article if I remember correctly, but could stand to be expanded upon slightly. A more thorough expansion would again be appropriate to a Philosophy of Creationism article.

- Competitiveness -- I'm not sure this is appropriate or significant enough to warrant inclusion in the Creationism article.

- Anthropology -- This is likely significant enough to warrant a few sentences or paragraph in the Creationism article. I don't believe a separate Anthropology of Creationism article is warranted, though.

I feel that the points raised here point out the need for Philosophy of Creationism article that leaves the original Creationism article to deal a concise and balanced way with describing creationism. I will be moving to have that article created, so to speak.--FeloniousMonk 07:32, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In what way would a history view contradict a science view?

<<..it's clear you neither understand the basic underlying science you address here, nor..>>

In my opinion, it is irrelevant whether a participant on this page understands the underlying science. And it is unnecessary to engage in this standard chimpanzee politics and hierarchy challenge that we all inherited from the ancestors of the chimpanzees. We are writing an encyclopedia page. And what matters is whether the participant faithfully represents a valid and documented point of view on the Creationism page. We will expect legitimate citations, of course. The Creationism page does not address, challenge, overlap, threaten, nor discuss science, though some wrongfully keep twisting the Creationism page to do so. In my opinion, Mr. Rayment's statements faithfully represent history and standard uses of the English language whether or not they correspond to the narrow views of science. ---Rednblu 06:01, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Insults, implied or overt, are neither welcome nor in the spirit of wikipedia. We can add these to your previous put downs of those who oppose your position as being "bigoted evolutionists." You may want to reconsider your tone here and blatant POV edits made to the main discussion page lately.--FeloniousMonk 07:01, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Let me start with saying, that I'm also of the opinion, that Creationism is a belief. But as some important believers want the label "theory", I agree with putting "theory" in the first sentence and suggested above the possibility of the clarifying however not in the scientific understanding of "theory" sub-sentence for a NPOV treatment. Please consider three points.

Whereas in the scientific discourse it is a honor to be a theory, in popular usage of the word, it is a dishonor. There is an interesting precedent of Wikipedia acknowledging this mismatch. Shortly after the Black hole article was featured on the front page, the necessity was seen of removing [[theory|theoretical]] from the first sentence [6] to avoid mis-interpretation as "not established", of "second class status".
At many different, difficult spots, we accept self-labeling of groups, to clarify later the opposing view. For example in characterising Jehovah's Witnesses as christian (intro sentence may change every second). The situation there is more bizarre, as not only the JWs self-label them as christian, but also most non-christians will label them christian, only most christians refuse vehemently. Same story with Samaritanism and Judaism.
It is pointless, leading only to overlong debates and edit wars, to put the fight to the top of the pyramid: the label, the summary, the "judgement". Get the facts right, and the reader can judge. It's the "Don't start the Adolf Hitler article with Adolf Hitler was an evil man argument", see [7].

And, BTW, has anybody read something of de:Harun Yaha? We are seeking some concrete counter-arguments for some of his concrete arguments but so far nobody volunteered to actually obtaining his book. Pjacobi 10:03, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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I agree it is important to get the facts right and let the reader judge, which is why I suggested outlining both sides of the controversy over use of the word theory in relation to creationism, as opposed to just using the phrase with what amounts to a disclaimer. I'm not summarily objecting to the proposed statement because it is not accurate, but because the sentence is confusing and not explicit; it requires of the reader an understanding of the differences and significance of those differences between "theory" in the sense of a nonacademic belief or notion, and an actual scientific theory, without providing an explanation of those differences. In other words, explicit statements are preferable to implicit statements, or tautological statements. If we can rework it to be an explicit statement, that would be an improvement and something I could support.--FeloniousMonk 17:20, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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I was aware that my formulation attempt will most likely not be stringent enough for a first sentence, as I said in my first post here. I'm still of the opinion that the statement is correct, and I interpret your post to agree on this. I fear I'm not much help in finding a good formulation, as I'm not a native speaker, and subtle difference between German and English may blur my view. On de: we settled (so far) on "ist die These" (is the thesis), which is less awkward but also less informative than is a theory, however not in the scientific understanding of "theory". In German the is the belief ("ist der Glaube") formulation would look rather strange. "Menschen glauben an X" (people believe in X), but we want to talk of X, and in some places of the believers (persons, organisations and tactics), not about the belief in X.

Sorry for confusing everbody.

Pjacobi 19:07, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

--

I have a feeling your English is likely better than ours, so please, have a go at it.--FeloniousMonk 07:47, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Again, I think your approach and framing of the question are flawed. Historic POVs and scientific POV's are not competition in academia, or in an encyclopedia. One POV does not trump the other generally, but share space. Nor should either impinge on the other's purview. They coexist within our corpus of knowledge and as to what extent this is relevant to keeping the article accurate it should be pointed out.--FeloniousMonk 07:47, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"POV" Headings

I have reverted the headings in Talk:Creationism#What is wrong with the lead section of Creationism? to NPOV headings. As my previous comments failed to convince, I am here enlarging on why.

Changed The Creationist point of view to One point of view

It is ludicrous to paint this POV as the creationist one when (a) the person putting this point of view is an evolutionist, and (b) no creationist has said that they agree with this POV. As a creationist, I am not arguing that point of view. "One point of view" is NPOV wording anyway.

Changed The Scientific Community point of view to Another point of view

This is now also NPOV. Calling it the scientific community point of view implies that the "scientific community" have a single point of view on this. Whilst not disputing that it is the majority point of view within the scientific community, it is most certainly not the only point of view in that community.

In any case, the proposals should be considered on their merits, not on the basis of whose points of view they are.
Philip J. Rayment 03:15, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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I understand the struggle here to find NPOV descriptions all too well, but I don't think leaving the particular arguments unindentified with the stance or groups with which they are assoicated is an improvement.

Nor can one make much of a valid argument for RednBlu's personal POV being "evolutionist" considering his anti-evolutionist rants here and elsewhere and his personal statement on his User homepage. He may accept evolution as the best explantion, but he's clearly against those who he considers "evolutionists" and has consistantly worked to opposed them aggressively.--FeloniousMonk 18:09, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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I learned a lot from that "Summary" exercise of Points-of-View, though sometimes it felt like a mere Chimpanzee Politics turf battle in which I felt like I acted like a chimpanzee ganging up in temporary coalitions to defend turf like everyone else I saw. However in the process, I consulted more actual encyclopedias and dictionaries in more depth than I had before. User:Steinsky wisely, in my opinion, replaced the ramble on the parent page with a thumbnail summary that actually works. And, in my opinion, it would be constructive for the quality of the Creationism page if we would continue that "Summary" exercise here on the subpage where that work toward a "Summary" actually belongs. Accordingly, I structure a "Summary area" below where I would suggest that each contributor wanting to participate would edit only their own Summary statement. Whose statement goes first or last does not matter to me; so feel free to move the position of my statement as you feel that position would strengthen your own personal point-of-view. And of course, I invite anyone else not listed below to make a summary statement, particularly anyone reading that has not yet had a chance to make a statement on what they think would be the most accurate lead section for the Creationism page. Please limit statements to around ten lines--merely for clarity. If you want to make a long statement, please do so outside the following "Summary statements of participants" section. ---Rednblu 16:04, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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I've stated my opinions here clearly a number of times already, readers will have no trouble finding them. Constantly refactoring the Talk pages is a well-known tactic here on wikipedia used to wear down resistance of opposing POVs and shape debates to favor a particular POV, so please be aware of this and the three edit and three revert rule, and keep your refactorings here within that range to avoid being accused of running a campaign.

I'll re-summarize my opinion here again, but I will not be limited to an arbitrary ten line limit that you've dictated without seeking consensus. I think interested parties should be free to use as many lines as needed to clearly state their position.--FeloniousMonk 18:09, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No civilized approach would allow science to own the word and definition of "theory"

<<By positioning its assertions in the realm of science and opposing science, Creationism should then have to meet the same standard as science when identifying its claims or itself as a "theory.">>

Maybe for some enterprises your principle of "have to meet the same standard as" would be constructive. But I doubt that your principle of "have to meet the same standard as" is a good approach for writing a truthful and accurate encyclopedia. For in establishing the principle of "have to meet the same standard as," someone must declare which standard is the winner, within what otherwise would be a free-market competition among different standards.

Perhaps, the Wikipedia community would like to encourage the scientists in winning the competition over what definition of theory is allowed within Wikipedia. After all, as Justice Holmes once said, "If you have no doubt of your premises or your power and want a certain result with all your heart you naturally express your wishes in law and sweep away all opposition."

Above you argue that the Wikipedia community should declare that "Creationism should then have to meet the same standard as science." But I suggest that declaring the monopoly outcome for science over control of the word and definition of theory would be fatal in trying to put together an accurate and truthful encyclopedia.

For as Justice Holmes said, it is natural to want to sweep away all opposition. Then he continued, "But when men have realized that time has upset many fighting faiths, they may come to believe even more than they believe the very foundations of their own conduct that the ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas-that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out." [8]

I suggest that instead of adopting the principle of "have to meet the same standard as," a truthful and accurate encyclopedia would display the participants in the "free trade in ideas"--something like Creationist A says "A theory is the following . . .," and Nobel Prize Winner B says "A theory is something different . . . ." You may think that such an accurate description of the "free trade in ideas" would permit the creationists to manipulate people's minds with their pseudoscience. I do not take such a dim view of what natural selection and circumstance have made of us. Do you really think that pseudoscience has such power? ---Rednblu 06:58, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So wikipedia should allow Straw Man arguments to redefine the word "theory" for everyone to accomodate your special pleading?

You have a singular gift for coming up with straw man arguments. Science doesn't "own" the term "theory" any more than Christians own the term religion; dictionaries define words based on what is found in general usage, and according to most dictionaries, people associate the word theory first with science before they associate it with a notion or idle conjecture, which is what you're arguing it is in this limited case (making your claim a special pleading).

"...I doubt that your principle of "have to meet the same standard as" is a good approach for writing a truthful and accurate encyclopedia. For in establishing the principle of "have to meet the same standard as," someone must declare which standard is the winner, within what otherwise would be a free-market competition among different standards."

OK, so it's your position that in order to have a "a truthful and accurate encyclopedia" we should not define terms consistently or demand stringency in our justifications for defining thusly? Your "free-market" justification for abandoning explicit definitions leads to a race to the bottom and intellectual mediocrity; it only assures that all definitions so defined will be so vague as to be near useless.

"Perhaps, the Wikipedia community would like to encourage the scientists in winning the competition over what definition of theory is allowed within Wikipedia... Above you argue that the Wikipedia community should declare that "Creationism should then have to meet the same standard as science." But I suggest that declaring the monopoly outcome for science over control of the word and definition of theory would be fatal in trying to put together an accurate and truthful encyclopedia."

That's singularly threadbare and ignoble reasoning. Not exactly in the spirit of wikipedia now, is it? Trying to make this out as a competition and that scientists here are trying to make a power grab is a shabby and intellectually vacuous tactic. You used the same ploy in your creationist campaign at talk.origins and alt.atheism and it didn't work there, what makes you think it's going to work here? You and the proponents of creationism are the ones seeking to redefine the term and change the article, not us, we are satisfied as it is. Those here you call "scientists" are not asking for the article to be changed, you are. You've been flooding this debate with every form of specious notion to find an angle, and barring that now you're stooping to new lows. Your POV campaign here isn't able to make the case so you try to tar your opponents... Nice!

"For as Justice Holmes said, it is natural to want to sweep away all opposition..."

Well, Justice Holmes also said "Three generations of imbeciles are enough." in Buck v. Bell, 1927, endorsing Virginia's eugenics program. I'm not surprised you'd cite his likes as support.

Then again he may have had a point, perhaps we have had enough generations of imbeciles...

"I suggest that instead of adopting the principle of "have to meet the same standard as," a truthful and accurate encyclopedia would display the participants in the "free trade in ideas"--something like Creationist A says "A theory is the following . . .," and Nobel Prize Winner B says "A theory is something different . . . ."

Using your logic here one would never be able to have meaningful foundational basis for the word. It's like saying even though most experts and the public agree dogs are members of the species lupus, some non-experts should be allowed to say they belong to the species silvestris, because their religious beliefs dictate that any other belief is wrong and so they should get a special exemption. That's singularly bad logic.

You repeatedly use the phrase here"...a truthful and accurate encyclopedia..." but I have to ask why the concern about truth and accuracy now? I mean, you haven't bothered to be truthful or accurate to us about your POV agenda and history now, have you? Bringing up this argument now after our summaries is again an attempt to get another bite at the apple and refactor the debate, just more proof of the shabby tactics of your POV campaigning here; it's blatant flooding of the Talk pages, a violation of wikipolicy.

I'm reluctant to engage you again in anymore discussions here considering the recent revelations as to your true POV, the lack of good faith it indicates, your history and identity. Obviously your mild claims of supporting evolution are nothing more than a beard you've hidden your creationist, religionist agenda behind to disarm your opponents, based on my reading your extensive history of usenet tactics in talk.origins, alt.atheism, etc. going as far back as 1996. You used the very same tactics and arguments there and were shown up to be a fraud. I feel your pet POV campaign here to redefine creationism as a theory and dishonesty about your true POV bias here precludes you from contributing anything with semblance of NPOV. I think you've got a lot of explaining to do before I and others will give you full faith and credit as a wikipedian.--FeloniousMonk 09:39, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The creationists' points-of-view should dominate the lead section of Creationism

<<Therefore, my first choice of wording would be along the lines of:

Creationism is the movement that proposes that the universe and all life were created by deliberate act of God as described in the Bible.>>

In my opinion, movement is a great improvement in accuracy over belief--because I think movement captures both the idea and the organization that promotes the idea. Also, I think Mr. Monk's suggestion is a good one: "Creationism is the religious doctrine that . . . ." What came to my mind on reading both of your summary statements was this possibility:

"Creationism is the movement and religious doctrine promoting the idea that . . . ."

Your phrase "Creationism is the movement that . . ." may be simpler and more accessible to the reader.

Is there any significant view within creationism that would feel a bias against them in the statement "Creationism is the movement that ... "? Perhaps a significant portion of creationists might not like to associate themselves with the Organization of a movement. Also, in your opinion, is there a significant view within creationism that would feel that the phrase "as described in the Bible" is biased against them? For example, according to the Encyclopædia Britannica article on "creationism,"

"Scientific creationists believe that a creator made all that exists, but they may not hold that the Genesis story is a literal history of that creation."

Would the statement Creationism is the movement that proposes that the universe and all life were created by deliberate act of God as described in the Bible be biased against such scientific creationists? ---Rednblu 17:32, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Regarding whether any creationists would object to "Creationism is the movement that...", I can't really say, other than to offer the opinion that I don't think they would.
Regarding whether any creationists would object to "..as described in the Bible", I suppose it depends on who is included in that category. Intelligent Design people don't refer to themselves as "creationists", but if you include them, then I guess that some of them would disagree with this bit. Apart from them, creationists pretty well all agree with what the Bible says, they just disagree on what it means!
Philip J. Rayment 12:53, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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Ahh, ok. Are you saying that generally each creationist reads the Bible account of the creation as describing the events in their particular version of creation? Hence, the Bible account is given wide interpretation by creationists in a full range from those who believe that creation occurred in 1) six twenty-four UTC hour days to the extreme of 2) God created only the first bacterium of life from which all creatures alive today evolved according to natural selection. If that is so, in my opinion that would be important to say, perhaps in the second sentence. ---Rednblu 16:20, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In principle, yes. My caveats are:

To be pedantic, it's a bit extreme to talk about "twenty-four UTC hour days". I've never heard of a creationist insisting that the days were exactly 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 60.00 seconds long. Rather, I've often heard them refer to "six solar days" or similar, to allow for the fact that Earth's rotational speed may have varied slightly and therefore the original days may have been different to modern days by, say, a number of seconds.
It depends on who is included in the term "creationist". As I said, ID people don't use that term of themselves, and I wonder if it would be fair to include theistic evolutionists (the other extreme you mention) in the term. Even though they believe that God created the universe and the first life, I don't believe that the term "creationist" is really used by them nor about them. I more had in mind people that reject evolution, such as progressive creationists, gap-theory followers, etc. that don't necessarily agree on the meaning or the length of the creation-week days.

Philip J. Rayment 12:24, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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Are you advocating that "creationist" is a self-proclaimed designation? It may be better to adopt a "neutral" point of view to define the term and apply it whether or not the person with the defined point of view uses it to describe themselves. I offer as an example the term "materialist." I don't think I have ever referred to myself as a "materialist"--because the term does not express the nuances of how I think of myself. Nevertheless, the term "materialist" is regularly used--and fairly--to distinguish my writing and thought from "dualist" or "idealist."

The term "evolutionist" offers another useful example. It is useful in the Creationism article to use the term "evolutionist" even though there are few molecular biologists who would refer to themselves as "evolutionist"; Charles Darwin used the term "evolutionist" repeatedly to refer to himself and to other "naturalists" who were convinced that natural selection explained the Origin of Species. Sixth edition of Origin of Species that you can scan for Darwin's uses of the phrases "admitted by most evolutionists" and "admitted by all evolutionists."

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You make valid points regarding the use of terms. I actually wasn't totally advocating that; I was being deliberately vague, pointing out that there are different ways of looking at this, although I suppose I was leaning a little the way you said. However (to still sit on the fence), here are some further thoughts.

I have no problem with using a term of people that they don't use of themselves, if that term is appropriate. If fact I know I do this myself in other areas (e.g. calling atheism a religion, even though I know most atheists don't consider atheism a religion).
We still need to consider the normal use of the word. With regard to theistic evolutionists, I didn't just say that they don't use it of themselves, but also that others don't use of them.
We need to consider people's sensibilities. In this case, if creationist is used the way that I described, then it may be understandable that others who believe something different didn't like being lumped into that category.
If we include ID within creationism, then we cannot describe creationism as "... as described in the Bible", as ID poeople don't necessarily go along with that.
If we include theistic evolution within creationism, then we cannot describe creationism in terms that indicate creation as distinct from evolution (which the article doesn't do at the moment), nor even as a "movement", because the "creationism movement" is really a reaction to uniformitariansm and evolution, both of which theistic evolutionists accept.

So I'm still fence-sitting. Back to you for further comment.
Philip J. Rayment 03:18, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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Well said. I am listening. Wouldn't you want the Creationism page to have a short paragraph on all the varieties you mention above--with a break-out subpage for the details--similar in structure to the Evolution page? ---Rednblu 05:59, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Summary statements of participants in the above discussion

Summary of the issue:

What is the best single word or phrase to describe "Creationism"? Should the word "theory", which has multiple meanings be used?

Summary statement of FOo:

Summary statement of FeloniousMonk:

My position remains that the current opening sentence "Creationism is the belief that the ..." is accurate. It correctly identifies creationism as a belief. Any meaningful sense of the word theory implies codified sets of useful knowledge, which creationism is not. It should be noted that those who are making the argument for the use of theory to describe creationism are making a special pleading.

Historically and here on wikipedia creationists consistently insist that creationism is an equally plausible alternative to scientific explanations and that such scientific explanations are wrong. By positioning its assertions in the realm of science and opposing science, Creationism should then have to meet the same standard as science when identifying its claims or itself as a "theory." Few would assert that the geocentric model is a theory in any sense, yet actually it is supported by empirical evidence unlike creationism, for which there is no empirical evidence. This illustrates clearly the problem of associating creationism with even the idea of theory, even its loosest sense.

As theory is defined on wikipedia, creationism fails to qualify as a theory because: 1) is inconsistent with any pre-existing theory that has withstood verification experimentally or in reality, 2) is not supported by any credible evidence but rather rests on a single foundation of magical thinking, 3) cannot be verified or tested, but must be accepted on faith, leaving it open to unresolvable disputes regarding interpretation and its nature, 4) makes no predictions that might someday be used to prove or disprove its claim, or those of any of the alternative explanations for the same data.

Of the vernacular definition of theory as defined on Dictionary.com, only the last, most fully deprecated definition provided can be said to apply to creationism. It is clearly not the most common usage of the term and hence not sufficient to justify its use in an introductory statement to a encyclopedia entry. By the majority of the above criteria creationism clearly does not qualify as a theory, yet it fully qualifies as a belief as it is defined by both wikipedia and dictionary.com

Additionally, the following leading scientific organizations have all issued statements that creationism is not a scientific theory:

The constant drumming insistence of creationists that their belief is a theory here and elsewhere itself is significant enough to justify including a mention of it in the article. I propose an outline of their justifications followed by objections/criticisms of those claims.

I do not support Pjacobi's compromise solution on the grounds it would be misleading and confusing to readers who may not understand the nuances and distinction it makes. His proposed sentence is confusing because it is not explicit; it requires of the reader an understanding of the differences and the significance of the differences between "theory" in the sense of a nonacademic belief or notion, and an actual theory, without providing an explanation of those differences. An good encyclopedic entry should present explicit statements, not implicit statements, ill-defined, nuanced statements or tautological statements.

Frankly, the introductory statement is not explicit enough... this is a more accurate statement and and used in the media: "Creationism is the religious doctrine that all living things on Earth were created separately, in more or less their present form, by a supernatural creator, as stated in the Bible; the precise beliefs of different creationist groups vary widely." I propose that this more accurate description identifying creationism as a "religious doctrine" be used in place of belief or theory.--FeloniousMonk 00:47, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Summary statement of Philip J. Rayment:

The competing origins models are creation and evolution. The competing philosophies are creationism and evolutionism.
"Belief" is an accurate word for both creation and evolution (e.g. one of the definitions FeloniousMonk linked to says a degree of conviction of the truth of something esp. based on a consideration or examination of the evidence). But "belief" is often understood to be only to do with things that cannot be verified, and for that reason I expect evolutionists would not like evolution called a "belief", so to call creation a belief would be just as misleading.
"Theory", used in the scientific sense, is equally applicable to creation and evolution (I have shown above, for example, how one can make predictions from the creation model, and how it is therefore potentially falsifiable). The only sense in which it is not scientific is that it refers to unique past events which are therefore not observable nor reproducable, but this same criticism applies to evolution.
However, as some evolutionists understandably object to "theory", and creationists similarly object to "belief", I propose that we use neither of these terms, but find a term that both sides can agree to.
As this article is titled Creationism, I propose that it be about the phenomenon of the apologetics movement arguing for belief in creation and opposing belief in evolution, primarily (but not exclusively) as expressed in the last 150-200 years in reaction to uniformitarianism and evolution. Therefore, my first choice of wording would be along the lines of:

Creationism is the movement that proposes that the universe and all life were created by deliberate act of God as described in the Bible.

If others disagree about the 'movement' aspect, then my second choice of wording would be:

Creationism is the idea that the universe and all life were created by deliberate act of God as described in the Bible.

Summary statement of Rednblu:

I support Pjacobi's suggestion above that the first sentence of the Creationism page should be

Creationism is the theory, however not in the scientific understanding of "theory", that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible. (Pjacobi 21:44, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC))

because Pjacobi's suggestion is supported by standard English dictionaries and encyclopedias including but not limited to

Encyclopædia Britannica ("theory that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing (ex nihilo).")
Buch, Carl W., Hagenbach's (C. R.) Compendium of the history of doctrines tr. 1847 ("The theory designated Creationism..was now more precisely defined.")
Oxford English Dictionary, 3d edition ("The theory which attributes the origin of matter, the different species of animals and plants, etc., to ‘special creation’ (opposed to evolutionism).")

Summary statement of Hob Gadling:

I am definitely against "theory" and don't particularly like "belief". "Movement" is better than both, but I guess "point of view" is the obvious choice. Hob 21:24, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

Ed Poor butts in

I didn't participate in the above discussion, but I think I'm the contributor of the disputed sentence. (Let me take a moment and *blush* if I'm not ;-)

Here is what I'd like to see now, in view of the recent, er, unpleasantness:

"Creationism is the belief that the universe, the planet earth and all life on the earth was created as deliberate act by a divine being.

A later sentence -- possibly even in the same intro paragraph -- would identify the religious believers espousing this view, why they believe it, and some important variations of the belief. If this is too much for the lead paragraph, trim it and allude to details to follow:

Jews and Christians cite the Old Testament account in Genesis as authority for their faith: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. ... God created man in his image ... male and female He created them." (Genesis, chapter one from memory, so please correct the wording)

Whether the view should be called a "belief" or a "theory" is another question. If the term theory is disputed by us contributors, just use view as a catch-all term. I think most of us can agree on belief simply because a lot of people believe this viewpoint. We could also mention somewhere in the article the movement which is trying to get the view re-classified as a scientific theory (see creation science or scientific creationism). Note that the intelligent design movement is also trying to get scientists to agree to use the term hypothesis in a this context. --Uncle Ed 15:03, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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