Talk:Criminal law

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2019 and 26 April 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: EMUramirez.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

WP Law assessment

Assessed this as B class. Mostly well-written, well sourced and well illustrated. It doesn't flow especially well, which is probably down to editing, but it wouldn't take a lot to lick this into shape for a GA review. It would be nice if we could get all the core subjects to at least GA class (Law already being FA class). --Legis (talk - contribs) 20:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Complete Revision

I don't want to start the editing process without first asking a few questions and stating a few opinion. Also, it's New Year's Eve and I'm killing time before going out. However, if I start editing I just know that I'll be here five hours from from now when the ball drops since I'm a little OCD.

I'm going to be blunt: this article is seriously flawed and should probably be recreated from scratch. I'm not trying to be mean--honestly--and I don't want to offend people who've undoubtedly spent a good deal of their time in sincere efforts to make the article the best they could create. Still, as a practicing criminal lawyer (and adjunct), I'm intellectually horrified. (I'm sorry. Again, I don't mean to insult.)

For lack of time--I'll definitely be back later--we should start with only three issued that must be addressed in this article. The first is ideological, but will translate into a change in the article structure, which is the second issue. Lastly, I have some suggested readings that are both short in length and are absolutely essential for understanding the subject and therefore contributing to the article.

It's become rather trendy in the past decade of so to put almost anything in pro or anti-American constructs. While much of this is the fault of the current dumbass in the oval office ("you're either with us or against us"), it doesn't hold here. For the most part, criminal law is universal, as opposed to civil law, which varies widely throughout the world. I would challenge anyone to find a society that does not prohibit rape, murder, theft, etc. These crimes fall into the category termed malum en se, meaning that they are bad in and of themselves. I don't know offhand if this categorization dates back to the Romans or it was created later and the Latin is purely for show--lawyers tend to be a pompous bunch.

Regardless of it's history, the malum per se and malum prohibitum--a bad that is prohibited for social order or taste or whatever reason, varying greatly from place to place--distinction is vital to understanding the topic. It needs to be explored in depth and placed at the top of the article where the Hamurrabi section is currently. Personally, I would dump Hamurrabi unless you were planning on greatly expanding the history section. Hamurrabi really isn't that important except for the fact that it was the first legal regime that was "codified" (i.e. memorialized in a systematic form; more simply, organized and written down). It has little influence on modern law as it was property focused as opposed to the people focused legal regime, which was a great advancement of the Jews, given to us by Moses (or God) and codified in the latter books of the Torah. Modern legal regimes are all people focused. (I don't know if there's a term for this category, but anthropologic seems to fit, plus it's in latin).

Come to think of it, the actus reus and mens rea parts should be the first substantive section, after a possible intro, since it's the most fundamental concept of criminal law. Also, rewrite the strict liability section because it has major problems. First, its not an element of a crime; it's a theory of liability, like negligence and recklessness. Second, the definition that you have for strict liability is actually the definition of "proximate causation". Proximate causation and strict liability to have the commonality that they are both imports to criminal law from the law of torts, but they are not at all interchangeable. Third, reus and rea should be translated as "evil", not guilty. The difference is much more than symantic as the term "guilt" carries with it all these notions of liability, or blame, that are inappropriate for discussion of elements. The malum pro se versus malum prohibitum section should follow the elements section and it creates a perfect place to launch into a discussion of comparative criminal law and criminal law jurisprudence (theory), which should be sections three and four, or four and three is probably better.

I've got to go as I'm now supper later (of course!), but think about how you all would like to rework the punishment section. It should break into two subsections only, not the five or so that you have, most of which are in actuality further subsections of "Rehabilitative" and "Retributive". Also, retributive has no connection to utilitarianism. In fact, most retributive systems, often termed "deontological" (meaning a theory or study of moral obligations) systems are directly at odds with utilitarian ideas or criminal law regimes. This "Punishment" section should be fifth, although it's sometimes places first in a criminal law textbook (such an arrangement is mostly stylistic as it can be used for emphasis without causing substantive change to the underlying subject).

Whoever wrote the punishment section doesn't seems to fully understand the topic. I would recommend reading this section in a textbook or a treatise. Also, the Model Penal Code, published by the American Law institute would be helpful. Come to think of it, the best thing to read is probably is a study guide like the "..in a nutshell" or ..."for dummies" series. Law students find these very helpful to review right before the final exam.

I'll come back later and add more or help edit what others write. One last time, I'm trying to be helpful here and truly desire not to hurt anyone's feeling. This is the first time I've try to edit and it's a lot of fun. As a practicing lawyer, you seldom get the chance to step back and look at the big picture, much more of your time is spent arguing the fine points of the law. In realty, the super majority of your time is spent on the facts. It's much more important to know what really happened as opposed to figuring out whether the occurence constitutes a crime.

Happy New Year! And don't drink and drive! Or, to be cynical, do drink and drive, since DUI defense is probably the best paying part of the business. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsjames (talk • contribs) 06:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

History of Law

Wow, that is severaly lacking. Surely its not to hard to find more information on how law evolved. I know i know im a lazy bastard for not doing it myself :P 77.250.25.165 (talk) 17:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

line fandamentals and legal telmanologys —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.84.106.96 (talk) 02:25, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

This Article is way too thin.

This article is way too thin to be meaningful. Anyone want to help build this out? Lawblogger18 (talk) 03:39, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Criminal offence

Just what is a criminal offence in the UK? Some say it is an offence where you are convicted in a Magistrates or Crown Court, but this is not the case as I can prosecute someone in civil court for theft for example of which is a criminal offence.

Is it to do with the dishonest or devious intent of the crime? Then, if manslaughter (accidental killing) is a criminal offence under the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, then what about neglecting to do something or accidents? leopheard (talk) 17:07, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Tough to define. For instance, assault is both a crime and a civil wrong, and you could either prosecute for the crime or sure for the trespass to your person. You can't "prosecute" someone for "theft" in a civil court, but you could sue them for conversion. Neglect is usually used in the context of a duty of care, which would put that sort of thing in the realm of tort law, which is civil. To be honest, it's something that many more people more qualified than I have debated over for centuries. Sorry. Pascal (talk) 20:51, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

It has been suggested that the difference between civil and criminal proceedings is that the Crown controls the termination of criminal proceedings. I can tell you that the distinction is not punishment/compensation because you can get punitive damages in civil proceedings, compensation orders and restitution orders in criminal proceedings, and before 1951 the situation was further complicated by "penal actions" brought by common informers. James500 (talk) 22:35, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Cuts

I have removed the following passages because I find them innaccurate. The mens rea for robbery does not consist merely of the specific intent to use force etc. Robbery is a form of aggravated theft. That means that the mens rea includes dishonesty. My understanding of the decisions in R v Feely and R v Ghosh is that it would be open to a jury to acquit Robin Hood if they were of the opinion that his actions were not "dishonest according to the standards of ordinary decent people" or, if they did not accept that, they were of the opinion that he did not realise that they were. See for example Professor Griews book. In any event these passages do not explain the real issue. James500 (talk) 18:31, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

The English fictional character Robin Hood had the mens rea for robbing the rich, despite his good intentions of giving to the poor

If Mr. Hood robs from rich Mr. Nottingham because his motive is to give the money to poor Mrs. Marian, his "good intentions" do not change his criminal intention to commit robbery.

More

I have cut the following because it is not true. In England and Wales, private prosecution is still possible, even if it does not happen very often. James500 (talk) 18:31, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Criminal law is enforced by the state, unlike the civil law which may be enforced by private parties.

Doubtful

"Criminal law, or penal law, is the body of rules that defines conduct that is prohibited by the state because it is held to threaten, harm or otherwise endanger the safety and welfare of the public"

This definition would include at least some torts. It might not apply to all crimes (i.e. the concept of the victimless crime). Its source is not clear. James500 (talk) 15:01, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

plea agreements

In a criminal case( Conspiracy to commit manufacturing of marijuana ) where one person will plea guilty, only if the other party involved does not get charged. Can the 2nd person still be charged after the person entering the plea of guilty is sentenced ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.174.8.155 (talk) 17:14, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Does this question relate to improving this article? Remember that the purpose of this page is to improve the article, not as a forum. Also, please note that Wikipedia does not give legal opinions. Singularity42 (talk) 17:27, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Post coviction law and probation. violations

& — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.83.47 (talk) 02:54, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Draft outline

There's a draft for an outline of criminal law at Wikipedia:WikiProject Outlines/Drafts/Outline of criminal law. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:50, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Notice:

The articles are mixing historic, in nation local and other, and current, including facets of moral and what would definitely be factors.

The whole is becoming less and less pertinent and too diffused to be any good to anyone.

Cleanup will be required, both here and for tort. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.92.204.150 (talk) 16:11, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

what is criminal law

criminal law 41.191.79.129 (talk) 09:48, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

See sentence #1 of the article. Mathglot (talk) 09:57, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Versari in re illicita

(copied from Talk:Strict liability)

versari in re illicita = Latin formula that dates back to Roman law Avanti Cristo (before Christopher Columbus/Amerigo Vespucci); and is the "Mother" of strict liability, felony murder, preternatural crime etc. Joseph77237 (talk) 09:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I assume that's in reference to Special:diff/1231333802, in which the phrase "The versari in re illicita" was added to the article (and later removed by another editor). That's great and all that you know what it means, but if you want to explain that phrase in this article, you just need to use complete sentences and supply a reliable source for the definition. Adding random, unexplained, and untranslated non-English phrases to the text is not an improvement. I'll note that versari in re illicita exists but currently redirects to Fault (law), where it is not explained, so it does seem there is room for improvement on this topic. -- Beland (talk) 19:46, 13 July 2024 (UTC)