Talk:Cristian Pache

Reverts

IP, please review WP:BASE/N, Talking Chop is a blog. I replaced it with MILB.com, and found another source that mentioned Pache's second selection to the All-Defense team. Take a took at how ledes for professional baseball players Ronald Acuña Jr., Ozzie Albies, and Jason Heyward, and several others are formatted. Minor league all star selections are simply not notable enough for the lede, even though those players were highly touted prospects in their own right. I included Heyward in this comparison to show that end-of season prospect lists might be notable if many such lists place a player at the very top. Otherwise only top-level league accomplishments are listed in the lede and infobox. This is yet another facet of WP:BASEBALL consensus, just like BASE/N is. Admins do not "rule" the project, consensus does. Vycl1994 (talk) 22:56, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

I will look further at this when I have a moment, but very quickly now addressing just the one point - wp:lede is what controls. As wp:lede says (emphasis added): "The lead serves as .. a summary of its most important contents... The lead .. gives the basics in a nutshell and cultivates interest in reading on .. The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points .. The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. As in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic... "

Formats of individual ballplayers are indeed all over the map, and often do not follow wp:lede - which is why we have other stuff exists. There are other ballplayers that do follow wp:lede, as this did before you violated wp:lede with your deletion.

WP:BASE/N is about whether the subject is sufficiently notable for an article. Not whether material is notable enough to be reflected in a lede or in the text of the article. There, the fact that it is reflected in an RS is what makes it appropriate to reflect in our text. And the fact that it is among the most significant items in the text is what makes putting it in wp:lede appropriate. WP:LEDE is what rules here.

Furthermore, just looking at the first ones, your other reverts seem most unhelpful. Why would you disadvantage the reader by deleting the pronunciation of the subject's name? Why would you de-link the team Gulf Coast League Braves that was linked? Why would you delete from the text that he was born in was born in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic? The admin that closed the deletion review had - properly - reflected all this and the other material you deleted in the article. Please explain these and your other reverts, or restore the unexplainable. This is a disservice to readers.--2604:2000:E010:1100:B529:B15C:D8AB:B079 (talk) 23:27, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

The WikiProject consensus I mentioned previously is covered at Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Player style advice. Use of quotations is discussed at MOS:QUOTATIONS and Wikipedia:Quotations. Any platitudes would be best described in editors' own words, but not Wikipedia's own voice. I added positive commentary about his defensive skills and development of power in this manner. "As a prospect, Pache drew attention for his defensive skills. Throughout 2018, he began displaying an increased ability to hit for power." Quoting too much from pundits could be seen as a copyright violation, or if just one writer is particularly complimentary, WP:UNDUE. Same thing with quotes from teammates. Pache is good, but it does not seem that he is covered like a Heyward, or with as much attention a number one draft pick would receive. Adding WP:Too much detail does not improve the article. Vycl1994 (talk) 02:31, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

You have not responded to most of my points above, as to your deletions.

As to wp:lede, please note that it is a wikipedia generally accepted standard. That contrasts with the Player Style Advice that you point to, which as it says is "the advice and/or opinions of one or more WikiProjects [and] not a formal Wikipedia policy or guideline, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community."

As to the quotations you now bring up (while ignoring the points I asked you to address), I did not put in and have no problem with you deleting the two sentences you mention. 2604:2000:E010:1100:6110:7925:CDC3:8DF0 (talk) 22:38, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

I already have restored Pache's birthplace, the sourced pronunciation of his surname, and missing wikilinks to notable subjects. It is the position of WP:LEDE to cover the notable, but it is also agreed on in BASE/N, that being the minors is not enough notability in most cases. If it is not notable then it does not belong in the lede. For established major leaguers, the circumstances that lead to their selection in the draft or first signing as an international free agent is the only coverage of their early career in their respective ledes. For yet another example, see Derek Jeter, a featured article. Jeter's 56-error season is well known amongst fans of baseball, and reliably sourced within the article about him. It makes him stand out, is a record, and therefore notable. But, no. Other than "The Yankees drafted Jeter out of high school in 1992..." and the sourced commentary regarding his personal life, everything in the lede to Jeter's article is about his major league career, as player or executive. The lede describes notable achievements of its subject, that's true, but it is the position of the baseball WikiProject that minor league achievements are not notable enough for the lede. The two are not at odds with each other, the baseball WikiProject has just reached a consensus about what is notable and what is not, and therefore, what should be included in the lede and what should be left out. Vycl1994 (talk) 01:35, 11 January 2020 (UTC)