Talk:Croat Muslims
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problems
editThere seems to be a lot of WP:CFORK issues here, because I distinctly remember reading several of these paragraphs in other articles. Furthermore, the image caption that I just fixed points to either gross incompetence or a lack of good faith. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:35, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Name change?
editShouldn't this page be called "Croatian Muslims"? It would fit with Croatian Catholics, Croatian Jews, Croatian Buddhists, etc. It appears to me the name is trying to note the ethnicity and religion together without confusing them with other Croatian Muslims (who are ethnically Bosniak, Macedonian, Albanian), but I believe "Croatian Muslims" is still the appropriate term to use. Thoughts? --Jesuislafete (talk) 18:52, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Well, this article is about Muslims of Croat origin. Croatian Muslims are every Muslim who lives in Croatia. But this article is not about Bosniaks, Albanians, Roma, Arab immigrants, living in Croatia. The article is about ethnic Croats - Muslims who are self-declared as ethnic Croats - descandants of Catholic Croats which converted to Islam during the Ottoman period. Everyone who lives in Croatia is a Croatian, but everyone is not a Croat. Jews, Albanians, Bosniaks, Roma, Serbs, Hungarians, Italians, immigrants from Asia, etc. which lives in Croatia today are not ethnic Croats - they are ethnic minorities.
There is a similar page about Greek Muslims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Norrskensstämmor (talk • contribs) 01:43, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- An article about citizens of Croatia of any ethnicity who adhere to Islam would be titled Croatian Muslims. However this article does not really talk about them. It talks about members of an ethnic group (Croats) who also happen to be Muslim. Hence Croat Muslims and this article. That said, I find this concept to be very problematic. Anyone familiar with this region knows that Croat/Bosniak/Serb are more often than not practically regarded as ethnoreligious groups. Although not all ethnic Croats are religious, those who are almost exclusively self-describe as Roman Catholic, and the same could be said about ethnic Bosniaks (who are Muslim) and Serbs (who are Orthodox). The idea that people in Bosnia who adhere to Islam are in fact ethnic Croats albeit of a different religious tradition is something that had been espoused by the WW2 Independent State of Croatia regime which used is as justification for its annexation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and has been totally rejected since. In addition, the rather interesting 2011 census crosstab published by the statistics office says that out of around 63,000 Muslims in the country (1.47% of total population) only 9,467 also thought of themselves as ethnic Croats (so only 15% of all self-described Muslims in the country and about 0.22% of total population). And the group is neither recognized as a minority by law nor do they have any organization which would define their identity. The only organisations that pop up in a Google search mentioning "Croat Muslims" are not in Croatia or Bosnia at all - they all seem to be some obscure "centres" located overseas exclusively. It seems to me that the idea of "Croat Muslims" exists only in the minds of people for whom World War II never ended and possibly some of their exiled descendants. And the article does very little in the way of discouraging my belief since it devotes most of its body to World War II era and the likes of Muhamed Hadžiefendić and Džafer Kulenović. With all that in mind, I simply don't see how this can pass our notability criteria. At best this is an article about an obscure ethnnoreligious cross-grouping of people no more relevant in number than say Croat Protestants (8,042) and pretty much devoid of any communal identity. At worst this is a piece of nationalist propaganda posing as the former. Timbouctou (talk) 22:47, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
- I'd kill this article, merging the content into either Bosniaks of Croatia or Islam in Croatia or Bosniaks, etc.
- Also, I really dislike the unsourced inclusion of living people in the infobox. GregorB (talk) 11:32, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- An article about citizens of Croatia of any ethnicity who adhere to Islam would be titled Croatian Muslims. However this article does not really talk about them. It talks about members of an ethnic group (Croats) who also happen to be Muslim. Hence Croat Muslims and this article. That said, I find this concept to be very problematic. Anyone familiar with this region knows that Croat/Bosniak/Serb are more often than not practically regarded as ethnoreligious groups. Although not all ethnic Croats are religious, those who are almost exclusively self-describe as Roman Catholic, and the same could be said about ethnic Bosniaks (who are Muslim) and Serbs (who are Orthodox). The idea that people in Bosnia who adhere to Islam are in fact ethnic Croats albeit of a different religious tradition is something that had been espoused by the WW2 Independent State of Croatia regime which used is as justification for its annexation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and has been totally rejected since. In addition, the rather interesting 2011 census crosstab published by the statistics office says that out of around 63,000 Muslims in the country (1.47% of total population) only 9,467 also thought of themselves as ethnic Croats (so only 15% of all self-described Muslims in the country and about 0.22% of total population). And the group is neither recognized as a minority by law nor do they have any organization which would define their identity. The only organisations that pop up in a Google search mentioning "Croat Muslims" are not in Croatia or Bosnia at all - they all seem to be some obscure "centres" located overseas exclusively. It seems to me that the idea of "Croat Muslims" exists only in the minds of people for whom World War II never ended and possibly some of their exiled descendants. And the article does very little in the way of discouraging my belief since it devotes most of its body to World War II era and the likes of Muhamed Hadžiefendić and Džafer Kulenović. With all that in mind, I simply don't see how this can pass our notability criteria. At best this is an article about an obscure ethnnoreligious cross-grouping of people no more relevant in number than say Croat Protestants (8,042) and pretty much devoid of any communal identity. At worst this is a piece of nationalist propaganda posing as the former. Timbouctou (talk) 22:47, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
Deletation
editI think this article shouldn't be on Wikipedia. It's unrealistic. Anyone can made up something and than find chary picked sources. It's absolutely silly for an encyclopedia to have an article such as this one. And I agree with GregorB, article should be incorporated in Islam in Croatia. --Yerevani Axjik (talk) 18:36, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
Why? Croats, like Bosniaks and Serbs also converted to Islam in small numbers, and besides that, there has always existed Slavic-speaking Muslims which has had a Croat ethnic identity, just as there are today, according to the latest published data from the 2011 Croatian census. I honestly do not know what would be unrealistic in this article. Many prominent personalities in the history of the Ottoman Empire were of Croat ethnic origin; Rüstem Pasha, Piali Pasha, Murat-beg Tardić, Kuyucu Murad Pasha, Yunus Pasha, and so on. Even though I'm a Bosniak, I would like to see a similar article about Serb Muslims.
External links modified
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- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130526095354/http://domoljub.jimdo.com/domoljubi-ili/hrvatski-islamski-centar to http://domoljub.jimdo.com/domoljubi-ili/hrvatski-islamski-centar/
- Added archive https://archive.is/20130702053555/http://daily.tportal.hr/259528/Islamic-Centre-in-Rijeka-inaugurated.html to http://daily.tportal.hr/259528/Islamic-Centre-in-Rijeka-inaugurated.html
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