Talk:Cropping (animal)

More detailed table?

I think more detail to the table showing legal stance in different countries would be more interesting and more helpful if it had more detail, other than just allowed/restricted/banned. For instance, Finland is listed as "banned", but importing docked/cropped dogs is allowed (and not rare). Pitke (talk) 15:55, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Cropping in the US

The US has the largest dog population in the world, both in absolute and proportional terms. We have a statement in the body that informs that cropping of dog's ears is legal in the United States, in my opinion since the US has more dogs than any other country, and that numerous EU nations have banned cropping, it is "lead material" to mention that, "cropping is legal in the US a major nation", first it was removed as "...what is a major nation?"[1] again it was removed as it wasn't (inappropriately imo) considered lead material, now it has been removed, the rational given is "clean up"[2]

It is requested that the matter be discussed before the statement is removed. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 02:25, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

It was removed in neither case, just moved to the relevant section of the article, with a little bit of copy editing. There is already a section about different countries, including the USA (which is highly relevant to the article), and your information was greatefully received and incorporated in to the main article body. It didn't belong in the lede, as it was a stand alone fact, non-sequitur to the other information presented, and wasn't the summary of the main article which is intended in that section.

So, in summary, your edit has been kept, but just moved to the right part of the page. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 07:48, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

The issue is why isn't it considered lead material? Why has it been removed from the lead. Half the world has banned cosmetic cropping, the US along with Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia haven't banned it, US is the worlds largest "dog" country, it is important enough for the lead, explain removal or reinstate. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 11:58, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Your edit was non-sequitur with the rest of the lede, and stoof out on its own with WP:UNDUE. I have now reviewed the lede and inserted the relevant fact of the US being the leading country where this is practiced in to the flow. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 12:26, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Calling it non-sequitur (illogical) doesn't make it so, we can have four paragraphs for the lead and it was a good fourth one, and definitely not undue. However nothing can be perfect and I'd say I'm satisfied with the via media. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:33, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

The rewording of Owain works for me. The other version was poorly done and awkwardly written. Now it flows better. Seems a decent compromise Montanabw^(talk) 19:47, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Why is the "US is the biggest dog country in the world" dropped? Need to put it back. People will keep on asking what is so special about the US like Owain.davies did. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:42, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

In this context, it's totally irrelevant. The US doesn't ban ear-cropping, the number of dogs doesn't mean it matters one way or another. Unless you have a statistic on how many dogs in the USA have their ears cropped, which might be marginally relevant (but it is not all dogs of the cropped-ear breeds, it's a small subset of show animals anyway) it's irrelevant trivia. Montanabw^(talk) 23:11, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

It is the potential exposure to practice that is of interest, a large proportion of dogs live in the US and can be potentially mutilated legally, it is left to the whim of the dog owner whether to expose the animal to the procedure or not. A majority of countries have banned this procedure in consideration of the animals' welfare, yet a considerable proportion of dogs can be exposed to this procedure, as it has not been banned in the US. There is no reason to obfuscate the facts. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:06, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I am wary of giving WP:UNDUE to this, especially as not banning things is an act of ommission, rather than commission (there isn't, for instance, a law which demands that all dogs are cropped and docked). It is notable that the US largely leads this practice, but lets not get too carried away so that it becomes accusation and mug slinging. It is worth remembering that different cultures and societies place differing emphasis on personal (human) freedom vs heavy legislative burden, not to mention the complexities in the US of state vs federal law. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 06:22, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an international website, if it panders to cultural sensitivities and the like, we wouldn't have pages like the Depictions of Muhammad. I have presented my arguments as to why it is notable in numerous posts above, if anything therein is considered less than compliant as far as Wikipedia policy goes, I will be happy to address the issue. Let us not indulge in a personalised argument. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:11, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Speaking as an American, the emphasis is WP:UNDUE here, as the only dogs with cropped ears are primarily show dogs. It's still a problematic thing, but it's a small number of dogs and so absent statistics, I'm with Owain that we have a complex situation. Montanabw^(talk) 20:10, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

The point isn't about how many dogs are exposed to cropping in US, but how many can be potentially cropped. Therefore it is mentioned that US is the world's biggest "dog" country. Why is it undue to inform that? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:49, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I found a RELEVANT statistic and inserted it. Frankly, your proposal - that if the USA has more dogs, therefore it must have more dogs with cropped ears - is somewhat WP:OR and absent a reliable source stating precisely this, we really can't just put in random population statistics. However, in the spirit of reasonable compromise, I did a little bit of digging and put in the relevant info -- how many dogs probably have their ears actually cropped in the USA each year, and if you can find comparable statistics for how many dogs in the most commonly ear-cropped breeds live in other nations, that could, in theory, be useful too. Montanabw^(talk) 19:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I never presented any conclusion, so there is no wp:SYNTHESIS, I merely stated that since there are more dogs in many ways in the US, and the procedure is legal in the US, there is more potential for exposure of more dogs to the procedure. I didn't say there are more dogs cropped in the US than any where else, because I don't have the statistics. The mention of US in the lead has a rationale, that is because US being the biggest "dog country" allows the practice to be performed legally. If we write US is "notable" we should explain why, the "largest" mention is to this end. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 02:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Basically, I found the relevant stats on potential dogs getting ears cropped in the USA, added it and you STILL insist on adding the exact same, largely useless source (no raw data in it, for one thing) that has nothing in its text to do with the topic of ear-cropping, To the extent that the USA has the largest incidence of ear-cropping in either raw numbers or per capita, that's relevant, though we need more stats from other nations to prove it; I at least found some estimates of the number of dogs that MIGHT be getting their ears cropped and inserted that data. To the extent we have a lot of dogs in the USA, that's not relevant; data on ear-cropping is. At the very least, you need to provide a source with some raw numbers plus some statistics from other nations and it all needs to stay in the endnote, not the lead. Now stop edit-warring about this and go do some homework. Montanabw^(talk) 18:31, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Just check why the note got placed in the first place, I mentioned USA as one country that allowed cropping, it was removed because it was asked why pick that one name out of the bag, so we have the citation that tells us that US is the world's biggest dog country. Now you've added stats on 130000 puppies being mutiliated in this fashion per year in the USA, very good, but that compliments the earlier statement and not replaces it. We need the earlier to justify inclusion of USA in the lead. Secondly raw data is a primary source, analysis from a secondary source is better than raw data. We need put it back. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 02:38, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Fine, it's out of the lead, and the proper cite is in the body. End of story. And no, the source is not raw data, it's an analysis from a secondary source. Now let's end this. Cropping is bad, we get it, I'm on your side on this, for chrissake. Montanabw^(talk) 21:47, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

You solicited raw data, "At the very least, you need to provide a source with some raw numbers plus some statistics from other nations and it all needs to stay in the endnote, not the lead. Now stop edit-warring about this and go do some homework. Also we are back to square one, I'm happy you put the US/ Canada info in the body, now it is important enough to have in the lead, as the lead is the article's summary, and the fact that cropping is legal in US/ Canada (the former being the largest dog country in the world) merits mention in the lead. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 21:07, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

You already made your argument about a hundred times. But no, I see no particular reason to put this all back into the lead again. And I am the one who found the data, so now please drop the stick. Montanabw^(talk) 21:53, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand the importance of who found what, and just as you see no particular reason to put this all back into the lead, I do for the oft repeated reasons. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:17, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Drop the stick. Consensus is against you on this one. Live to fight another day. Montanabw^(talk) 21:24, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Does 2:1 make a consensus, does a swallow make a summer? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:54, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Stick. Drop. Now put in your last word on this WP:POPE issue, and let's close this matter. Montanabw^(talk) 18:07, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand how POPE is relevant in the context of this discussion. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:52, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Cropping vs. Spaying/Neutering

I question the POV of this article. It seems to have been written mostly by those who advocate legislation to ban the practice and cites many reasons for doing so, however outright ignores or dismisses those reasons FOR the practice. Further, it lists "no medical necessity" as a reason, however, there is no medical necessity for spaying or neutering (in most cases) yet that is considered a humane practice. Given that it is still legal and supported and is safer than other 'safe' practices like the aforementioned, the article definitely does not pass the POV test. --Winged Brick (talk) 01:22, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, go find some sources that properly pass WP:V and [{WP:RS]] for your assertions. If you have good sources that are reliable, I see no issue adding some material on what proponents of cropping say. Problem is that there just isn't much that passes the smell test. Montanabw^(talk) 04:30, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I totally agree with Montanabw. I have been involved in similar pages such as Dubbing in chickens. Editors have claimed POV but then when asked to produce suitable sources supporting the practice, they have failed. Several of these mutilations were historically justified by e.g. dog-fighting or cock-fighting, but where these are now illegal, they can no longer be justified. Please edit with suitable sources....if you can find them.__DrChrissy (talk) 19:03, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

"Blah, blah, Hitler, blah blah, Cock Fighting." Really? Cropping = Cock fighting? --Winged Brick (talk) 03:03, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Go find sources. Put up or shut up, and spare us Godwin's Law. Montanabw^(talk) 20:49, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I was attempting to engage in a debate about the TONE of the articles and you compare my analogy to spaying/neutering to cock fighting then go all "PUT UP OR SHUT UP" on me. No need to go nuclear. Cock fighting is not cropping. Cropping has advantages that are ALREADY referenced in the article. What I am against and trying to get discussion on (rather than internet bully-debating) is the dismissive tone and lack of fair treatment of the pro-cropping viewpoint. It seems to have been written by the HSUS. And frankly, I don't have a clue what "dubbing" is with regards to chickens. Your 'credentials' mean nothing to this discussion. --Winged Brick (talk) 23:15, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

If you had taken the time to look at Dubbing you would have seen it is analogous to cropping. The point is that similar arguements are made for dubbing and cropping, e.g. reducing injury in cockfighting. But, in creating/editing these types of articles it can be EXTREMELY difficult to find reliable sources which state the benefits. Then to write a balanced article means there is usually considerably more information on the negative aspects. If you have verifiable reliable sources, include them in the article. I have absolutely no idea what you mean about credentials?__DrChrissy (talk) 23:46, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Your dismissive tone, (saying ""Blah, blah, Hitler, blah blah,..." for example) Winged Brick, is itself bullying. Go find pro-cropping viewpoint sources and we will discuss how they can be added. Until then, there is little more to say. Montanabw^(talk) 03:47, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

On a slight side note, you say that it is "still legal" - that is only true in a limited number of developed countries - as you can see, most have banned it, and this is a global article. Without wishing to get in to an argument, the others are right in that the article reports the reliable sources. There is no issue with talking about benefits, provided someone can provide citations which meet WP:CITE standards. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 12:01, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

List of dog breeds that are (traditionally) cropped

I have removed a large number of dog breeds from the lead section, as the list was too long as an indicative look at a few breeds whose ears are/were commonly cropped. I selected some breeds out which are commonly known, and are likely known for having cropped ears, but other people might have differing opinions on which dogs are best for this list. Please make a case or substitute breeds on the list as you see fit, just don’t add a new breed without taking some other off. I also think there is a good case for including a list somewhere in the article, or even as a category for dog breed articles on Wikipedia. — Hazzzzzz12 (talk) 06:00, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate the limiting of this list - I agree it could be very long, in fact any dog breed could potentially be added, although ear cropping is usually limited to a smaller number of breeds, those breeds are still numerous.

I have altered the list slightly, changing the text from 'pit bull' to 'pit bull and bull-terrier type breeds' for disambiguation reasons on the basis that pit bull is used as a general term encompassing a number of breeds in the USA (and umbrella groups of breeds are ideal for giving a shorter overview and introduction), however, 'pit bull' has a more narrower, breed specific meaning in many countries.

Pit bull in the USA is used to refer to the American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT), but also to an an umbrella group of different but interrelated breeds. As the article for Pit bull explains: 'Within the United States the pit bull is usually considered a diverse grouping that includes the breeds American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, American Bully, Staffordshire Bull Terrier and sometimes the American Bulldog.'

In comparison in the UK and Ireland, and other countries 'Pit Bull' is more limited to 'American Pit Bull Terrier' with bull terrier including the others breeds, or 'pit bulls and bull terriers' including those interrelated breeds don't quite fit in one or the other. These breeds collectively are affected by ear cropping in countries where the practice is illegal.

The common ancestral breed to all these breeds is the Bull and terrier from Great Britain and Ireland, but I don't propose using that as the breed no longer exists or is no longer recognised.

I don't propose any new hyperlinks as the Pit bull article gives a good explanation of the varied usage of terms at the start of the article. Montezuma69 (talk) 01:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

For use of discussion, I have preserved the full list here, please add to it if you can:

• Pit bull,
• Miniature Pinscher,
• German Pinscher,
• Doberman Pinscher,
• Schnauzer,
• Great Dane,
• Boxer,
• Griffon Bruxellois,
• Briard,
• Bouvier des Flandres,
• Neapolitan Mastiff,
• Cane Corso,
• Cão Fila de São Miguel,
• Perro de Presa Canario,
• Dogo Argentino,
• Caucasian Shepherd Dog,
• Central Asian Shepherd Dog
• Beauceron