Talk:Cross of Saint Peter

Satanic

I'd like to discuss a possible angle for the satanic connection of St Peter's cross. In the 16th/17th centuries there was a wave of protestantism across Europe. I can only really account from an angle of British history, but in Britain Roman Catholicism was outlawed.

Roman Catholicism was effectively pushed underground. Wealthy families built secret chapels in roof spaces or cellars (See the article on priest holes[[1]]). These Roman Catholics who continued to practise would have had to have deceived others outside of their community, and they would have developed secret ways to recognise each other. Also they're bible and rites were in a language that could not be understood by the layman.

So we have:-

People who worship underground.
They meet in secret.
They use instruments of worship on an alter.
They hide the truth through deception of who they are and what they worship.
And the symbol of the accredited first pope (St Peter) is an inverted cross.

Looks to me like satanism and the inverted cross rose as an imprinted image through the propaganda of the protestant revolution.

Satan is already familiar to the people as an image of evil & the deceiver of man, and the inverted cross was familiar as a symbol of the Church of Rome. Blending these images together would have definitley produced the desired effect

This of course is merely conjecture on my part, but I leave these comments with part of a quote from John Adams made about the American revolution on the 13th of February 1818 [[2]].

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations

To me this speaks of why propaganda exists. Stuzilla 23:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Eh, maybe. But the usage as a "symbol of Satanism" has caused much laughters and fun in my church. I think maybe this loony interpretation is some analogue to the idea of reciting Our Father backwards, which according to folklore should have an inverse magical effect. Except that Our Father is not a magic formula... ;-) It's a prayer! ... said: Rursus (bork²) 20:50, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I also think there should be a re-direct to this page for "Satanic Cross" because St. Peter holds no particular religious position in the Bible compared to Jesus, therefore the St. Peter's Cross can't be seen as any particular symbol for Christianity. 2nd, to hold people upside-down constitutes torture as a matter of fact, but I need reference for this (or else WP:Source ?)! Just this. Bye! 37.200.45.168 (talk) 10:48, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

37.200.45.168 -- In traditional Christianity there are many many symbols of many many saints, and St. Peter is actually one of the most prominent among them (as one of the 12 apostles, and founder of the church in Rome). See Saint symbolism or Italian Wikipedia article it:Armoriale dei santi for probably more info than you want to know... AnonMoos (talk) 12:55, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, that or it's simply the fact that it's the most prominent universal Christian symbol, only inverted. Robrecht 18:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Should a Satanism category be added? Psychomelodic User:Psychomelodic/me 10:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Article name

The article was renamed to Petrine Cross because that is how the Vatican translates the name. This needs to be discussed. The rules about article names are it uses the name most commonly known in English. "Cross of St. Peter" or "Peter Cross" is how it is most commonly known. I understand the Vatican holds some authority for some people but the cross is not owned by the Vatican it is a cultural icon for Catholics and non-Catholics alike. We need to stick to the rules of Wikipedia. -- Stbalbach 20:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If consensus cannot be reached, Jimbo holds the ultimate sway here. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 20:54, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

---

Why isn't the title 'Inverted cross'? If I type this in Wikipedia I get redirected to 'Cross of St. Peter'. That's strange because the inverted cross is mostly know as a anti-christian or a satanic symbol and not as a symbol of St. Peter. Yet, by giving it the title 'Cross of St. Peter' you make the inverted cross in the first place a Christian symbol. This is not correct to me. To many Christians and non-Christians the inverted cross is not the cross of St. Peter. It would be more objective to name the title 'Inverted cross'. Especially since the inverted cross has completely different meanings which are opposite of each others. It's wrong to me to choose one of the different views by giving the title a Christian or an anti-Christian meaning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.123.177.225 (talk) 22:59, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Cross of St. Peter or Petrine cross is the traditional name in traditional Christian symbolism. The anti-Christian meaning is historically more recent. AnonMoos (talk) 23:10, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Pope as anti-Christ

Any chance the depiction of this Catholic symbol as being Satanic could be connected to the Reformist view that the Pope was anti-Christ? Through the reformation and beyond many Catholic symbols became linked to Satanism for this purpose. For one example the bent Crucifix the Pope carries atop his Crozier has become tied to Satanism. -- 20:47, 18 September 2009‎ 86.41.153.203

2014

What is the origin of the bent cross? 174.4.162.2 (talk) 17:24, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "bent" would mean in this context. Certainly the basic Cross of St. Peter is not bent... AnonMoos (talk) 02:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Modified Petrine Cross?

I'm Catholic and I remember seeing a symbol resembling an inverted Latin cross, but with a thin, curved line that starts at the bottom and kinda wraps itself slightly around the cross (kinda similar to the Methodist symbol). I've seen it a few times, and I don't know if it has to do with the popularity of the Cross of St. Peter as a Satanist symbol, which would lead to this modified version I'm talking about.--70.171.26.127 (talk) 17:55, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Parenthetical observation

In the section Satanic and anti-Christian imagery there's the following parenthetical sentence:

(Interestingly, Jesus referred to Peter as a "Satan", when he said to him "Get behind me, Satan!", in Mark 8:33; see also vade retro satana).

I assume this is an attempt to imply that Jesus/The Bible says that Peter was Satan, and therefore the inverted cross as a satanic symbol did not originate simply by inverting the most recognized Christian symbol. Would I be right to think both parts of that would need a citation? 74.76.167.243 (talk) 21:44, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't have an answer to your question, but it does bolster the theory presented (earlier on this Talk page) about Protestantism vs Catholic church. Not that I think the theory needs to be mentioned (or is necessarily correct), but the Peter - "get thee behind me Satan" connection should at least be mentioned.Jimhoward72 (talk) 19:34, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Seriously? Jesus isn't calling Peter Satan, he's talking to Satan who's using Peter to get in Jesus' way. Whoever wrote that probably isn't a big supporter of Catholicism... 207.233.80.160 (talk) 18:56, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Issues with the References Section

Looking at the references cited in the article, I found that they are all links to websites that are more or less championing the "Catholicism is Satanism" viewpoint, and none of them are religious commentaries or definitions released by the Catholic Church (or any non-dissenting Christian religion) itself. That's not to say that the Catholic-supporting facts in the article are untrue, but for people who wish to know more about the Petrine Cross, shouldn't the references section lead to informative websites and not to hateful, misinforming ones?

I understand that it is legitimate to reference a website that expresses the controversy on a subject, but the sources used should be reliably informative and objective, e.g., a well-written news article, in contrast to the currently used sources. -- 00:30, 27 July 2011 LhikJovan

The external links are more respectable, I guess... AnonMoos (talk) 08:34, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Another depiction of the crucifixion of St. Peter

Probably less artistically famous, but maybe clearer... AnonMoos (talk) 17:17, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

WOW

I had no idea that this was true. I didn't know that St. Peter was crucified upside down. Thanks Wikipedia.! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scottyhicks93 (talk • contribs) 01:26, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

References list for anti Christianity

Reference two should not be credited. It is not a real citation for St. Peters cross being used by anti religious groups. The citation leads to a book that simply states that "[it is] a symbol of both the devil; used in Satanism." That information is inaccurate. First of all, Satanism and Devil worship are not the same. Second of all, No evidence is provided within the book for this claim. EG the citation itself needs a citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.9.111.142 (talk) 20:33, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

The known Saint Peter/Saint Maurice links...

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/synexarion/maurice.html "In the middle ages Saint Maurice was the patron saint of several of the roman dynasties of Europe, and later on of the Holy Roman emperors. In 926, Henry I (919-936 AD), even ceded the present Swiss Canton (province) of Aargua in return of the lance of the saints. Some emperors were also anointed before the Altar of saint Maurice in saint Peter's Cathedral in Rome. The sword of Saint Maurice, was last used in the coronation of the Austrian Emperor Charles as King of Hungary in 1916" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.160.33 (talk) 19:38, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

What does this have to do with the symbol? AnonMoos (talk) 02:39, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Historical usage

Has cross of St. Peter never been used to kill anybody else than St. Peter? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.196.163 (talk) 16:10, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

According to the Crucifixion article, yes. AnonMoos (talk) 05:15, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

why up side down to be evil....explained

††you put a up side down cross crucifix on your head to signify evil....near by....az you are the deer near the water drink in....†† a reflection iz up side down.... thus this waz iz never explained az you say.... that up side down iz evil.... more like.... what....that up side down crucifix...."evil" misread.... evil iz another sentence.... not a jail sentence.... justin christ opher smith — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:8BC7:9300:B815:972D:3DDE:BD28 (talk) 00:22, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

French Occultist Éliphas Lévi pretty much invented the "tradition" that an "upside down" pentagram is evil; maybe the recent interpretation of Peter's Cross as evil was influenced by this... AnonMoos (talk) 13:53, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

There is no Unicode symbol?

There is e.g. the upside down pentagram (U+26E7), but not the Cross of saint peter as a Unicode symbol?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobias_Claren (talk • contribs)

@Tobias Claren: U+2E38 is an inverted dagger that can be indistinguishable depending on font but they don't have a proper cross of St Peter. Ian.thomson (talk) 06:46, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

History of St. Peter's Cross

I've been trying to find out how far back the inverted cross for Peter can be found, with no luck yet. If anyone has a source for first use and how common that use was, it should be added here. Dismalscholar (talk) 09:57, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

The tradition that St. Peter was crucified upside-down comes from quite early Christian texts (see Acts of Peter etc), though not included in the Bible. The inverted cross symbol would follow naturally from this, though I don't know the date. AnonMoos (talk) 12:07, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Right but if you are claiming it is used as a visual symbol you need visual proof. It may 'follow naturally'...but not everyone buys that frankly. A single image of any pope or the catholic church in general using this image would really help your case... Pushingrocks (talk) 15:05, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Petrine is not the same as Satanic inverted cross

The article should either be split or name changed to "inverted cross" because the use of the cross by satanists has nothing to do with the Petrine cross. They are the same symbol but mean completely different things. Symbols aren't universally defined; just because it's first use was Petrine cross doesn't mean the later iterations are the same thing. 2603:6010:11F0:3C0:D80E:D3BA:EFAE:8CD1 (talk) 16:20, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

It was used as the Cross of St. Peter for many centuries, while the anti-Christian meaning developed in the late 19th century at the earliest. That gives it a certain priority. AnonMoos (talk) 22:00, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Protestantism and superstition

Perhaps the occult section should be expanded to include superstition and the Protestant history behind the symbol. The emergence of the inverted cross in popular media during the 20th century did not emerge from itself. 2603:6010:11F0:3C0:D80E:D3BA:EFAE:8CD1 (talk) 16:23, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Why no pictures?

Article claims that said cross is 'Often' used as a papal symbol. However, I cannot find a single picture of any pope ever alongside said cross. The Papacy is one of the largest art holders/commissioners of all time, and yet this alleged symbol never shows up. And I will specify that pictures of the crucifixion of St. Peter do not count. They are representational, not symbolic. If you are claiming this was used as a symbol you need to show examples of said cross used symbolically. Cursory research on my end shows nothing. Pushingrocks (talk) 15:01, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

There may not be a photo available under a free license. I thought there was a fact-check on Snopes about this, but all I can turn up right now is this: [3]... -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:59, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

One very grainy picture of a 20th century Pope is still not evidence that the upside cross is 'Often' Used as a visual symbol.

And there are no photos anywhere on the internet under any licence Pushingrocks (talk) 14:00, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I should specify used as a visual symbol by the papacy...There are many examples of it used by anti-catholics of course Pushingrocks (talk) 14:02, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

It's actually used more by anti-Christians. There may be a better photo at this page, but I can't directly view it at the moment. You can read what Catholic.com has to say here... AnonMoos (talk) 16:31, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

A picture would still not be enough. On Wikipedia, we don't prove "often" by collecting photographs; that would be a breach of Wikipedia:No original research, a core Wikipedia policy. Instead, verifiability requires reliable sources stating that, in this case, that cross is often used as a papal symbol.

Currently we do not even have a reliable source saying that it is ever used as a papal symbol; the one source given does not say so. The argument that the Pope is therefore often represented by Petrine symbols and the Petrine cross is a Petrine symbol is a form of original research described at WP:SYNTH. I suspect that sources can be found to support at least a milder statement, so I'll tag the unverified text rather than delete it. NebY (talk) 18:07, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I answered his question about photos because that's what he asked. Catholic.com linked in my previous comment says it is sometimes used as a papal symbol. I vaguely remembered that there was a fairly widely-distributed early 21st-century photo of John Paul II on one of his foreign trips next to a Petrine cross depiction, but if so, I can't find it now... AnonMoos (talk) 19:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, it might not have been clear from the indentation but I was answering that same question rather than criticising your response! NebY (talk) 20:05, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

References