Talk:Crusading movement/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 09:35, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Happy to review the article.

Brilliant Amitchell125! Happy to have you onboard, all feedback (good and bad) more than welcome. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:30, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Initial review comments - links to other articles

The issues I have with links are listed below, I'll cross out my comment if I can see it has been addressed. One I've done the links, I'll look at other issues. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:17, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Lead section

The Crusades template would be better with the information hidden (as with First Crusade, a GA). The article is not in fact part of the Christianity series, so the template should be taken out. Link the Church (Latin Church); ideology; theological (theology); holy war (Religious war); indulgence; metaphorical (Metaphor); clerical world (clergy); Luke 9; Jerusalem (History of Jerusalem during the Middle Ages]); heretic.

1 Background

Link heretic; canon lawyer (canon law); Latin Church. 1.1 Christianity and war Link Fresco in the caption. Link holy war (as in the lead); theology; piety. 1.2 Knights and chivalry Link Chivalry; knighthood (Knight); Old Testament; Israelites; militia Christi (Miles Christianus); clerical (Clergy); cavalry; infantry (Infantry in the Middle Ages) sergeant (Serjeanty); squire; gunpowder (Gunpowder#Europe); vernacular literature; excommunicated (Excommunication); blessings; just war (Just war theory). 1.3 Common people Link eschatological (Eschatology). 1.4 Perception of Muslims Link Chroniclers (Chronicle); Gesta Francorum; patronage; polities (Polity).

2 Evolution

2.1 Birth Link paradigm; antipope; Council of Clermont; Council of Piacenza; Benedictine (Benedictines); Outremer (Crusader states, linked further down with Latin East); historiography; anachronistic (Anachronism); symbiotically (Symbiosis); Norman conquest of Sicily (Norman_conquest_of_southern_Italy#Conquest_of_Sicily,_1061–1091); the recovery of Iberia from the Muslims (Reconquista); Mecca; Jihad (small j); Pisan (presumably Republic of Pisa). 2.2 12th century Amend epics to 'epic poems' (Epic poetry). Amend siege of Antioch to Siege of Antioch (1268) and link. Link Albigensian Crusade; allegory; Troubadour; schism (presumably Western Schism); Bohemund of Antioch (Bohemond I of Antioch?); archbishopric of Tyre (Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Tyre]); tithes; Cistercian; Eugenius III; papal bull; Louis VII of France; Edessa; Bernard of Clairvaux; Wends; Roger II of Sicily; Emperor Frederick Barbarossa (Frederick I, Holy Roman Emperor); Hospitallers (Knights Hospitaller); Cyprus (Cyprus in the Middle Ages); Malta (Hospitaller Malta); Knights Templar; sodomy; Luke 9. 2.3 13th century Unlink Innocent III in the 4th paragraph (duplicated link). Austrian Rhymed Chronicle needs to be in italics. Link Franciscans; Dominicans (Dominican Order); tournaments (Tournament (medieval)); stained glass; Middle English; Middle Scots; Charlemagne; Saxons; Vikings; Hungarian Peasants' Crusade (György Dózsa); Lombardy; Sardinia; Mongols; treatise; Hohenstaufen. papal bulls and Byzantine Empire should already have been linked higher up, so these links can be removed. Pisa was more than a city, so this link can be removed. Replace the link to Genoa with Republic of Genoa. Ditto Venice (Republic of Venice). The link to Pope Gregory IX should be moved up to where he first appears in the article as a cardinal. 2.4 14th century - 2.7 17th century and later Replace Lyon council beginning in May 1274 with Second Council of Lyon. Link Mamluk (Mamluk Sultanate); Prussia; Chronica majora; Charles I of Anjou; bridgehead. Unlink Western Schism (already linked). Link John V Palaiologo; Patriarch of Constantinople (Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople); Florence; Armenian (Armenian Apostolic Church); Nestorian (Church of the East); Cypriot Maronite Church (Maronite Cypriots); Varna in November 1444 (Battle of Varna); humanist (Humanism); Mantua. . Link English Protestant (English Reformation); martyrologist (Martyrology); idolatry; profanation (Profanity). Unlink Malta (already linked); Vienna (see MOS:OL).

3 Legacy
Unlink Fourth Crusade (duplicated link). Link nationalist (nationalism); European colonialism (History of colonialism); Venetian Greece (Frankokratia); Levant; Mediterranean Sea; mandates (League of Nations mandate); United Nations. Unlink Syria, Lebanon (MOS:OL).

4 Historiography
Link French Wars of Religion; charter; archaeology. Unlink World War I (MOS:OL).

@Norfolkbigfish: More comments to follow, looking at redundant text next. Feel free to make a start on the above! Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 18:27, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Amitchell125, that was a comprehensive list. I think I have made all these changes now, except the Unlink Syria, Lebanon on the basis this was a link to the mandate itself rather than the countries. Happy to take your view on that though. Kind Regards Norfolkbigfish (talk) 06:46, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

For the sake of clarity, I would amend the mandates to govern Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and Israel by the United Nations to something like '[[Mandate for Syria and Lebanon|the mandates to govern Syria and Lebanon]]'', and [[Mandatory Palestine|Palestine]]'. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:24, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Does the following edit work for you?

Muslim thinkers, politicians and historians have drawn parallels between the crusades and modern political developments such as the League of Nations mandates to govern Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine then the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine.

Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:56, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Looks good. AM

I have added links where you have accidentally left some out, and crossed out the issues as addressed. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:55, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Prose

Repeated text

(Individual issues are shown in the form xxx / yyy)

• Lead

touched on every area of life / religious thought, politics, the economy, and society; Pilgrimage and crusade were penitential acts / popes considered crusaders as having earned a plenary indulgence that gave remission of God-imposed temporal penalties; crusading was not unique to the Holy Land / crusading was transferred to other theatres; north-eastern Europe / the Baltic region; one Christian community / one Church; Pilgrimage and crusade were penitential acts / underpinned by the penitential practice of the medieval Church

• 1 Background

various Muslim polities / pagans

• 1.1 Christianity and war

in a single place / in his 1083 Collectio canonum or Collection of canon law; a template for a crusade / This was the First Crusade prototype

• 1.2 Knights and chivalry

was metaphorically described / being analogous to; God's people / under divine leadership / Christians believed this sacred warfare was conducted under God's authority and support; disciplined organised / enacted orders, executed strategy, and followed plans; Only in the 13th century did knighthood become analogous to nobility. / and by 1200 all knights were noble; knights, who were central to the crusade movement / In this cycle, crusading entered the culture of western knighthood,

other sections not commented on

Redundant words

• Lead

is evident in the texts that; From the beginning;

• 1 Background

key; within Christendom; who did not accept the Church; war-making; institutional; structural; the pre-Gregorian Church and

• 1.1 Christianity and war

aggressive; legitimate; penitential (in penitential system); the identity of the noble; significantly; and soldiering; and conditional on it being

• 1.2 Knights and chivalry

Similarly; were milites Christi; the knighthood became increasingly closed to non-nobles; without remorse; ruthless; as a cultural exemplar

other sections not commented on

What do to next

@Norfolkbigfish: This is all starting to look more like a peer review rather than a GAN. There are issues concerning the prose that I haven't listed yet, and some major issues with what I consider to be the incorrect placing of whole paragraphs (e.g. the one beginning The description and interpretation of crusading began with accounts of the First Crusade, which I would move down to the Historiography section). Additionally, some of the text doesn't seem to make proper sense, for instance when disconnected sentences follow each each in succession, e.g. Crusading and chivalry developed symbiotically. The former was effectively the merging of pilgrimage and holy war. The sanctification of war developed during the 11th century....

It might be better for the article to be failed at this point (due to prose issues) and for the text to properly copy edited to make it more encyclopaedic. I'm happy to take another look at reviewing it if it's nominated again, but I don't really want to get into the copying task that seems to be looming. Alternatively, I could put the GA review on hold until it gets copy edited by someone from the Guild of Copy Editors. Thoughts? It's potentially a great article. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:28, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @Amitchell125. I agree that this is potentially a great article and currently it is flawed enough to be failed as it currently stands. I was hoping that GAN would bring a second pair of eyes, I am too close to it to be wholly objective. You have certainly provided that. It has recently had a GOCE copy edit so I don't think that is a route to improvement. I know you don't want to get involved in the copying task, but can you share your issue list? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:49, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Mmmm, at present the list is all rough/incomplete notes written in my own way. I'll fail the GAN, sort something out in the style I'll already started here, and send it to you, if that's OK. Could you take a look at the remaining issues identified above before I start? Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 15:46, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

More than OK, much appreciated in fact. I'll look at the issues above, but will be after the bank holiday. Thank you for this.

KR Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:56, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

@Amitchell125, I have acted on the above. Appreciate the GA is closed, is this the last of your feedback? Thanks for your comments. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:03, 1 September 2022 (UTC)