Talk:Cry of Dolores/Archive 1

Archive 1

Comment

nihil: Erased the sentence that said that Hidalgo had rung the bell at 11:00 p.m. because that is a factual inaccuracy. Hidalgo rang the bell on September the 16th but, during the goverment of [Porfirio Diaz], he changed the date in order to celebrate the Cry of Dolores along with his birthday (He was born on September the 15th, 1830).

My version of the story (reading from the Enciclopedia de México) is that Hidalgo rang out the bell in the morning of the 16th to alert / drum up support among the local campesinos from the outlying areas coming into town for mass (16 September 1810 was a Sunday), but after a night of insurgent activity in which he and his cohorts had already attacked the local armory and disabled the local royalists.

The constititional convention that drew up the 1824 constit'n declared Sep. 16 a fiesta nacional, but it had already been celebrated as far back as during the revolutionary war -- López Raoyón, Morelos among their troops, etc. Celebrations on the 16th continued, but by the late 1840s, a tradition of more sophisticated "night-time" activities (theatre, concerts) on the 15th had begun, and by the 1860s the president (Juárez) was involved.

Bringing the Dolores Hidalgo bell to Mexico City and staging a "reenactment" on the night of the 15th was Díaz's idea, but it's unclear whether that was to emphasize his own birthday or simply because if you're going to throw a fiesta (particularly along the lines of nation building and promoting the national mythos that this one takes), you'll have better results at 11:00 at night than at 8:00 the following morning. IMHO, the birthday story smacks more than a little of the urban legend. –Hajor 13:23, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

So, what WAS the text of the original Grito de Dolores???. The presidential message is bowdlerized, it makes no reference to phrases I've heard as part of the original Grito, such as ¡Bajo de mal gobierno! (Down with bad government!) and ¡Muera a los gachupines! (Death to the gachupines, a rude reference to rich Spaniards). The Spanish Wikipedia mentions ¡Viva Fernando VII!, Fernando VII was the liberal Spanish king that the conservative Spaniards and creoles opposed.Tubezone 11:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

What the hell is that sentence about Fox doing in this article? Can someone please edit that, there is absolutely no point whatsoever in mentioning that.

Mexdem 18:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)--It should be noted, at least, that the deal the Senate worked out provided for Fox to move the Presidential Grito to Dolores Hidalgo as long as AMLO agreed to withdraw his own Grito in favor of Encinas, and removed from the Mexico City Zocalo following today's convention. (as reported in this morning's newspapers). This is my first entry. I hope I did okay.

Translation?

What is the English translation of Grito de Dolores? That should be part of the article, at least here on the English Wikipedia. —Stormraven (talk · contribs) 13:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm guessing something like "Declaration of Grievances." Can anyone fluent in Spanish confirm that and add it to the main page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.242.95.4 (talk) 22:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The translation is technically "Yell of Dolores", but really we say "Cry of Dolores". Yeesh.CamrynRocks! ^{|Live life} 01:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CamrynRocks! (talk • contribs)

Can someone please stop changing the meaning from 'from Dolores' to 'to Delores'? 'De' means 'from' or 'of' in Spanish. To say 'Cry of Dolores' in Spanish implies possession, ie- Dolores' Cry, which is not the case. What is meant is that Hidalgo was from a town called Dolores, and it was his yell that signaled an important event, so in Mexico it was the Cry from Dolores.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.204.225.103 (talk) 20:49, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I beg to differ-as you correctly point out, the de translates as of or from; however the context implies not the possessive, but rather the place of origin, nothing more. Also, as a historian and one who speaks spanish tolerably well, I have read fairly extensively on the subject and the Grito de Dolores has been translated as Cry of Dolores in every english text I can recall seeing on the subject. Please leave well enough alone-as I had written below in an earlier post, 'Sloppy scholarship doesn't help anyone'. Thank you.--Lyricmac (talk) 04:54, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect. You can recall? What kind of fact is that? Please yield to my being a professional translator and certified by the American Translators Association. 'Cry from Delores' is most appropriate since Hidalgo was FROM there and used the cry as a 'trophy' of sorts....'here we are, come get us, this is how we do it Delores style' chant. Thanks.69.204.225.103 (talk) 05:11, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Two things

1. The Grito de Dolores was held on September the 16th, so the days we should be celebrating are 16 and 17. Díaz actually moved the date so his birthday and the Día de la Independencia would be celebrated at the same time.
2. There wouldn't be an actual translation for "Grito de Dolores". Dolores Hidalgo, Guanajuato is a city, so no English name could be given for it. "Cry" is a correcto translation for "grito" (which actually means "scream", but the context gives the latter meaning--Fluence (talk) 00:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Gritar means, literally, to scream. However, context implies the verb to cry, as in to exclaim; ergo 'Cry of Dolores' is contextually correct.--Lyricmac (talk) 19:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The translation for Grito de Dolores does not mean "Cry for Dolores", because in this case Dolores is not a name, but it means pains, so a more accurate translation is "Cry of Pain", although that does not really do it justice. It just makes more sense in Spanish. User:24.94.28.102 (Talk)

The Grito de Dolores was so named because of its occurring in the town of Dolores, Guanajuato, not from any latent emotion eminating from the term dolores meaning pains(plural of dolor). Sloppy scholarship doesn't help anyone.--Lyricmac (talk) 03:48, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Please see above comments.--Lyricmac (talk) 13:44, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Double entendre?

This cannot be used in the article as it is, as I have no documentary proof, but it can be investigated: I was told that the name "Grito de Dolores" was a double entendre, meaning either "The Cry from Dolores", as it came from the town of Dolores, or "The Cry of Pain", as it was based on the pain of the Mexican people. I was not told this by historical scholars, but by patriotic Mexicans who were quite fluent in English. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 11:49, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Weasel words

In the phrase, "It is a common misconception among the non-Mexican community in the United States to mistake Cinco de Mayo, or May 5th, with the Mexican Independence Day," the substitution of the words 'some people' for 'the non-Mexican community in the United States' constitutes the use of weasel words and should be avoided (The group that most commonly makes the mistake of confusing the meaning of Cinco de Mayo is the non-Mexican population in the US, and, thus, needs no qualification).Lyricmac (talk) 00:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that assertion? There are many in the Mexican-american community who make this mistake as well. Without a reliable source it should be considered a violation of WP:OR and the entire paragraph should be removed. 67.199.164.225 (talk) 21:37, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I was reading the translation of the words that the prez says off the balcony, and on line says "long LOVE the centinnial...". all the other lines say "long LIVE". is this a typo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.29.195.191 (talk) 21:51, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The quotation of the Grito isn't verbatim and cant be

Trying to see just what events lead the priest to claim that their religion was under attack, I tracked down the reference book that the supposed quote of the Grito de Dolores was taken from The Course of Mexican History p. 253; while the quote of the words is from the book, the phrase before it in the book is ignored by whomever quoted it "The exact words of this most famous of all Mexican speeches are not known, or, rather, they are reproduce in almost as many variations as there are historians to reproduce them. But the essential spirit of the message is..."

The wiki article here acts as if these are the actual words verbatim and therefore is at best misleading and could even be seen as a bold face lie.Wowaconia (talk) 23:50, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

• I expanded the quote to show that it was an approximation.Wowaconia (talk) 23:56, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Smiley?

Resolved

Is there a smily face at the end of the last paragraph in the wording section?? Seems like that or unbalanced parentheses... lol. ugh. it's too late. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.65.65 (talk) 04:11, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

It was old vandalism. I've removed it. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 05:02, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Wrong name

I think this page should be renamed Independence Day (Mexico), or else because the Grito de Dolores was just only the way to begin the independence and all the movement that took around 21 years is the War of Independence, there is a difference between both. --please, don't disturb (talk) 02:14, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

This article is about an event, not about the commemoration, which is a relaed topic, but not the topic itself. Consider a similar example: should we merge United States Declaration of Independence and Independence Day (United States)? Cambalachero (talk) 02:40, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Inconsistent Dates

Other articles (such as Treaty of Cordoba and others) which link/redirect to this article refer to a 15 versus 16 Sept. 1810 date. Perhaps an especial separate sentance or paragraph (besides the talk page) might provide clarifying or amplifying information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.183.224.2 (talk) 23:38, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what date is Mexican Independence Day, but it appears that the celebration is begun with a recreation or commemoration of "El Grito" (the Cry or Shout) late on the night of the 15th of September. That is what the Spanish version of this article says. See https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grito_de_Dolores#La_actualidad There are many other sources that also state this to be the commencement of the celebration. The original "Grito de Dolores" apparently occurred around dawn on the 16th.

I am not certain why the commemoration is done on the 15th, but the above Wikipedia article states that it is an urban legend that the celebration was switched to the 15th by President Porfirio Díaz in 1910 because it coincided with his birthday. According to the article, the first time the Grito was commemorated on the 15th was in 1846 - 30 years before the presidency of Porfirio Díaz began. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grito_de_Dolores#Fiesta_c.C3.ADvica The article further states that according to an 1852 calendar, the commemoration continued to be held on the 15th of September, and that even during the conflict with France, President Benito Juárez commemorated the Grito on the 15th of September in 1864 even though he was on the run due to French occupation of the capital. Also see https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Ju%C3%A1rez#cite_ref-15

I have seen the date of Mexican Independence Day sometimes listed as the 15th/16th. Not sure what we want to do. According to the article, Mexican Independence Day is a "civic" holiday, but not an "official" holiday. Ileanadu (talk) 03:57, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Did a minor correction on a date that stated that "...each year on November 31... the president of Mexico", it should read the correct date of "September 15th", not "November 31". Gelidely (talk) 20:37, 25 January 2015 (UTC)