Talk:Crystal Palace, London

Morwen has merged the Upper Norwood page into the Crystal Palace Page.

Untitled

I don’t believe the two are equivalent. Crystal Palace refers to the area around the site of the old palace itself and especially the 'Triangle' between Westow Hill, Westow Street and Church Road . Upper Norwood describes the entire district especially the ridge to the west. A look at any OS map or London A-Z will confirm this. There should be 2 articles one describing the upper Norwood district and one the Triangle which is historically rich enough to warrant one of its own.

Lumos3

I will look into this. I note that though 'Upper Norwood' may have a formal definition, 'Crystal Palace' is unlikely to, seeing as it is just a nickname. Morwen 17:28, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Upper Norwood is all of the SE19 postal district. The area known as Crystal Palace straddles the border of several London Boroughs and postal districts. The Crystal Palace Park is in Bromley (which explains its neglect). There is also a Crystal Palace ward in Bromley. I have always understood the term 'I'm going up the Palace' to refer to the park. Anyone going shopping would refer to going to Upper Norwood.Bebofpenge 00:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Crystal Palace is getting bigger all the time. Parts of the Groves Estate in Penge are being marketed as Crystal Palace by estate agents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bebofpenge (talk • contribs) 06:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC) hi:)

Image of Sophie Aldred

Why is this actress's photo on this page? She seems to have no links to the area. Is this a promotion of some sort? It should be replaced with a good photo of the dinosaurs. Lumos3 22:11, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Phoenix Suburb

A man called Alan R Warwick produced quite a good history of the area in the early 1970s (he died a year or two later). Remarkably it contains not one mention of sport! Millbanks 22:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Bandstand

• there is a monumental bandstand in the park which looks like it's made of iron. it's rust-redness suggests that it's a Richard Serra. is this the case, i can find no mention of it anywhere? --81.158.255.134 (talk) 09:47, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
  • it's the Crystal Palace Park Concert Platform designed by Ian Ritchie Architects. why no mention? --81.158.149.157 (talk) 20:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposed to-do list

Had a few ideas for the improvement of this page:

1. Move Crystal Palace Park out into its own article - it is notable enough for a page in its own right but shouldn't take up so much space on this page - a summary would do. Make a link to Crystal Palace Park Concert Platform in the park section.
2. Move the "Area Today" section out of "History" and rename/split into new categories - I propose "Local Landmarks" and "Economy".
3. Find out where the information for the history section came from (old landmarks, etc) and add inline citations accordingly. Was it the Alan R Warwick book?
4. Add to the list of notable sports clubs, if any.
5. Find sources for the media section - much of it is unsourced material.
6. Create a geography section, mention the height of the area any any other unusual features. This section could also contain information on the convergence of several london boroughs in one spot, who they are and what political entities/wards represent each bit.
7. Find out if there are any notable people born in the area or who have lived in the area for a while. There's a fair few blue plaques in the area, some of them must be notable.
8. Transport/Road section: Add some remarks about the history of road planning in the area w.r.t. London Motorway Box plans.
9. Transport/Rail section: Make mention of the former railway station.
10. Transport/Bus section: Add a citation (prob TFL website).
11. Landmarks - Add Expand Westow Park section

SheffGruff (talk) 18:07, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

As per the peer review:

1. Define boundaries of the area more clearly as per the review. I've been finding it hard to find good reliable sources to pin this down so suggestions are more than welcome.
2. Update Sports Clubs section to Sports and incorporate National Sports Centre information and anything else notable - could probably expand on racing, football club origins etc.
3. Add information on local amenities (Upper Norwood Library, CP Farm, Crystal Palace Museum, etc).
4. Copy editing/rephrasing.
5. Citation Needed tag cleanup.

SheffGruff (talk) 23:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Crystal Palace, London/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Folklore1 (talk · contribs) 20:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

As I perform the review, I will update the following table. Please look below the table for my questions and comments. Folklore1 (talk) 20:28, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
	1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	See Lead notes for improvements applied to Rail.
	2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	Corrections applied to references in Geography
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	See notes about improvement to Rail.
	2c. it contains no original research.
	3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	Adequate coverage
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	Sufficiently focused
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	Consistently neutral
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	no recent edit wars
	6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	12 sharealike and 2 public domain images
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	Relevant images with suitable captions
	7. Overall assessment.	GA

---

On hold

I placed the article "on hold" to allow more time for improvements. GA hold periods are normally seven days. If you need more time, please leave a note so that I can extend the hold. Folklore1 (talk) 18:24, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I have extended the "on hold" period for another seven days to allow time for a few additional improvements. See my notes about Rail. Folklore1 (talk) 14:28, 30 September 2013 (UTC)  Done Folklore1 (talk) 12:58, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Lead

I had not previously seen "trial" used as a verb, but the online version of the Oxford English Dictionary cites the past tense of this verb spelled as "trialed" in the United States, and "trialled" in British English. Folklore1 (talk) 00:54, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

The third paragraph of the lead section contains text about rail transportation that is not mentioned in the body of the article, specifically details in the three sentences beginning:

• "After the palace was destroyed by fire"
• "Rail services gradually declined"
• "More recently, rail travel has seen a resurgence"

If this information is important enough to mention in the lead, I would expect to see more coverage in the body of the article. The purpose of the lead section is intruduce and summarize important aspects of the article. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section. Folklore1 (talk) 17:57, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

The information about rail transportation in the third paragraph needs citation to a source. Normally that's not a concern with GA class articles, because the sources will be cited in the body of the article. Folklore1 (talk) 18:05, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

After reading the Rail section again, I see it somewhat covers the sentence "After the palace was destroyed by fire" from the lead section. It also provides reference to a source. However, the body of the article still needs more material and reference citations to support the rest of the lead section's third paragraph. Folklore1 (talk) 20:03, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I've updated the rail body section to cover what is mentioned in the lead section. SheffGruff (talk) 23:47, 29 September 2013 (UTC)  Done

Geography

The weather table in this section uses a bare url to reference an article about "Monthly temperature records by country". This creates a risk of a condition called "link rot": at some point in the future, the publisher discontinues that page or changes address and the reference becomes a "dead link". With just a bare url, we might be unable to track down that source. That's why it's important to list helpful information such as title, work, publisher, author, and publication date. This needs to be corrected for GA status. Folklore1 (talk) 01:58, 22 September 2013 (UTC)  Done Folklore1 (talk) 20:11, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

The same table also has a couple of references labeled "archived from original". That's only a little better than the bare url. We still have a risk of link rot and this needs to be corrected. Folklore1 (talk) 01:58, 22 September 2013 (UTC)  Done

My intention with that table was to include it in the article, but in a collapsed form. The information originally came from the template Template:London weatherbox which is a derivation of the Template:Weather box. I ended up doing a crude copy and paste job because I couldn't find the correct syntax to pass the "collapsed = true" field to the base weather box through the London weatherbox. If you or anyone else knows how to do that then it would be much appreciated if you could replace all the existing code with the one-line template. At that point I could update the reference fields on the template and fix it in multiple locations instead of just this article. SheffGruff (talk) 13:38, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Local government

This tables in this section contain a color-coded column. I would guess this represents party affiliations, but I am unfamiliar with the color codes normally associated with political parties in London. An index to identify the color codes would be helpful. Folklore1 (talk) 13:37, 23 September 2013 (UTC)  Done SheffGruff (talk) 17:34, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Music

This section has a reference with a dead link. Folklore1 (talk) 15:14, 23 September 2013 (UTC)  Done SheffGruff (talk) 17:13, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Sports

Should "12 founder members" be "12 founding members"? Writing style in the USA would generally use "founding" rather than "founder" in this sentence. Folklore1 (talk) 15:39, 23 September 2013 (UTC)  Done

Founder member is preferred usage in British English - see: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/founder-member SheffGruff (talk) 17:45, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Education

I deleted one of the reference links to "Living in Crystal Palace". Although the two links had pointers to different range names within the cited web page, the range names no longer exist. Folklore1 (talk) 16:01, 23 September 2013 (UTC)  Done

Tram

I added the author name, date, and publication to a reference in this section. These details can be important for verification at a later date, when the url may no longer point to a valid address. Folklore1 (talk) 16:53, 23 September 2013 (UTC)  Done

Rail

This section had entirely too many run-on sentences, making it difficult to read. I broke some of them into two sentences. In the last paragraph of this section, I did somewhat more copy editing to make the text easier to read. Please take a close look it to see if I have altered the meaning in such a way that it would be inaccurate. Folklore1 (talk) 14:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

It appears to be fine so far as I can tell. SheffGruff (talk) 14:57, 30 September 2013 (UTC)  Done

"Passenger numbers increased each year between 2004 and 2013" is supported by a link to "Estimates of station usage", but the link points to a header page. As I am unfamiliar with this site, it will be difficult for me to find the statisitcs I need for verification. A direct link to the specific page where Crystal Palace rail statistics can be found would be helpful. If a direct link is not possible, please provide some navigating directions so that I can find it. Folklore1 (talk) 14:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The statistics are included in the various Excel spreadsheets linked to from that page, e.g. for 2011- 2012 under the heading "Latest estimates of station usage reports and data - 2011-12 report and data" the link is: http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/xlsx/station_usage_estimates_1112.xlsx If you look at the 2nd worksheet in that document, on line 628 are the statistics for the station of that year, with column U describing total station ticket entries and exits. These are summarised on the station's wiki page infobox here. SheffGruff (talk) 14:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)  Done

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140523231357/http://www.bromley.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/1942/crystal_palace_declaration_of_results to http://www.bromley.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/1942/crystal_palace_declaration_of_results
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130814105332/http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/oyster-rail-services-map.pdf to http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/oyster-rail-services-map.pdf

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