Talk:Cuban Stars (West)

New York City as home field

Regarding this edit, while the CS(E) were in New York, the sources I have also list the CS(W) in New York, specifically Green Cathedrals 2006 edition, pp. 157-158. I could piece it together here if in doubt, but if I re-add the info with the given source will that pass muster? (Dynamic IP, will change when I log off.) --64.85.215.18 (talk) 13:02, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

While Green Cathedrals certainly qualifies as a reliable source, I'd recommend being cautious in using it as the only source for a topic like this one, where it's easy to confuse the Cuban Stars (East), who did play primarily in the New York area and are sometimes referred to as the "New York Cubans," with the Cuban Stars (West), who were primarily playing in the midwestern NNL during this period. Newspapers of the time simply referred to the teams as the "Cuban Stars" or the "Cubans," so it takes a little digging to determine which team was which. Doing a search of ProQuest's historical newspapers, which include the Chicago Defender, the Baltimore Afro-American, and the New York Times for 1920–22, I found 8 articles covering games played by the Cuban Stars in Dyckman Oval, and checking the personnel against the rosters shown in Clark and Lester's The Negro Leagues Book, in all cases the team was the Eastern version (pitchers included Juan Padrón and José Junco; other players included Fabre, Oms, Mesa, etc.) Interestingly, in most cases the Cuban Stars were the visiting team in these games, playing against the Tesreau Bears who were regarded as the home team. I'll take a look at the later years of the 1920s and the Catholic Protectory Oval, but based on what I've seen so far, I remain skeptical that the Cuban Stars (West) ever made their home in New York City. BRMo (talk) 15:24, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

OK. While you are looking at the later years, I'll just throw up some stuff from Cathedrals that I used to make the determinations (I may have cross-checked this with another source but I didn't write anything down):

Dyckman Oval

• NNL Havana Cuban Stars 1920 ==> no home games in Havana, only NY, this is the (West) team, and then spent 1921 in Cincy
• NNL New York Cuban Stars 1922 ==> '22 NNL was (West) because (East) was independent until '23 & then in ECL
• ECL New York Cuban Stars East 1923-1927, Ap-May 1928 ==> not the (West) team obviously
• ANL New York Cuban Stars East 1929
• NEWL Cuban Stars 1932 ==> this is the (West) team in their final year (did they field a team in 1931 or were they independent or what??)
• NNL Cubans 1935-1936 ==> different New York Cubans team

Cath. Prot. Oval

• NNL New York Cuban Stars West 1923-30 ==> that is this team (West)

Let me know what you come up with, I'll watch this page for awhile. --64.85.215.18 (talk) 15:49, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I searched the historical newspapers for "Cubans" or "Cuban Stars" and "Catholic Protectory" during 1923–30. I didn't find much—just three doubleheaders played between the Cuban Stars and the Lincoln Giants. Again, in each box score, the personnel on the Cuban Stars match the rosters shown by Clark and Lester for the Cuban Stars (East). Also, the Cuban Stars were the visiting team in each case. I note that in their list of "Teams and their Cities," Lester and Clark list the Cuban Stars (East) in New York City from 1923–29 and 1932, whereas the only city they show for the Cuban Stars (West) is Cincinnati in 1921. I'm pretty sure that I've read that in other seasons they were a road team without any home park, but am having trouble finding a source for that. I'll keep my eyes open. BRMo (talk) 15:58, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, now that I look at other sources I see what you are saying. They possibly could be a traveling team with close ties to NYC but not a NYC "home" team. If I have the time, I might try to contact Cathedrals' Philip Lowry or SABR's Richard Clark and Larry Lester and see where they got the sources for the above home fields. In the meantime, I'll leave the article as it is until/unless something definitive crops up. (Dynamic IP, will change when I log off.) --64.85.221.4 (talk) 12:23, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

1931

Did these guys field a team for 1931 at all? They weren't in or associated with a league that I can tell. So were they barnstorming or disbanded or what that season? Rgrds. --64.85.215.204 (talk) 16:40, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Merge All Cubans into CSW article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Proposal Withdrawn. Holding off for now. Rgrds. --64.85.216.195 (talk) 14:13, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

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First, both articles state they were organized by Abel Linares and Tinti Molina, one team as a precursor of the other. Second, Seamheads lumps them together as one organization. It seems they are practically the same team that underwent a metamorphosis that happened to include a name change. Had there been no name change, I doubt they would be separated all that much, much like the STL Giants/Stars. Thoughts? Rgrds. (Dynamic IP, will change when I log off.) --64.85.217.153 (talk) 15:30, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. I agree that under the leadership of Linares and Molina, they can be thought of as the same organization. I guess the other change that happened during that period is that the team went from racially integrated to predominantly black, as most of the white Cuban players were signed by minor league teams in organized baseball. But that appears to have been a gradual process that took place over several years. If you'd like to merge the articles, I have no objection. BRMo (talk) 06:04, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I would wait on this. True, they're lumped together at the Seamheads DB, but it turns out that the Cuban Stars were created in 1906 when E. B. Lamar (of the Cuban X-Giants) and Manuel Camps signed away all of Linares's players for two teams, which they called (at first) the Cuban Stars of Santiago de Cuba and the Havana Stars. The Havana Stars folded quickly, but the Cuban Stars kept going. Abel Linares seems to have gained control of them by 1910 (possibly earlier, but that remains unclear), so you could argue that overall they represent a continuation of the old All-Cubans, but it's more complicated than it looks at first. Also be aware that there were two other teams called the All-Cubans that were definitely distinct from the Cuban Stars (and from each other), in 1911 and 1921.--Satchel (talk) 01:58, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.