Talk:Cullen Old Church

Informal review

General

• This all looks good to me. A few observations:

Description

• Phrases like "It is considered to be a fine example", prompt the question - "by whom"? It could also be thought a bit POV. Assuming it's a direct quote, I'd probably just quote it and source it, e.g. "The Pevsner for Aberdeenshire: North and Moray describes it as a fine example...."

Y Done - I've ascribed it to John R. Hume. (I haven't explained who that is in the lead, since it's in the next section)

• On this, I don't think MoS suggests italicising quotes as you do for John Hume?

Y You're right, fixed.

• What is a birdcage bellcote? Does it combine both functions, or does it just look like a birdcage? The former sounds unlikely, wouldn't the bell disturb the birds? Is it a Scottish thing?

Y That's how it was described in the source - I assumed it just meant that it was open like a birdcage, but I agree it's a bit jargony so I've just removed the word.

Interior

• A bunch of one/two sentence paragraphs that I'd probably bunch together;

Y Done.

History

• "the chancel was lengthened when the chapel was raised to a collegiate church[13], one of 38 such churches in Scotland at the time,[11] by Alexander Ogilvy of Findlater, Archdeacon Alexander Dick of Glasgow and Hay's son, John Duff of Muldavit, along with the parishioners of Cullen." - are they doing the "lengthening" or the "raising"? Not clear to me. And the punctuation goes before the cite.

Y They were doing both - I've split it into two sentences to make it easier to read.

List of chaplains and ministers

• The long list of ministers throws up a copyvio. Not a problem in itself, but they'd be better if sourced to the church document.

Apologies - I see it is at the very end. The problem is one is unsure as to whether that covers the whole list, or just the last name. Just as a preference, I'd cite each one, as per the long, dull list of headmasters I did here, Monmouth School. But it's tedious!

Y Groan - OK, done. Getting RSI from hitting Ctrl+V...

All in all, a very nice addition to the canon. Many congrat.s. KJP1 (talk) 09:31, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for looking at this KJP1, really appreciate the comments. Would you be willing to mark this as patrolled - the log is still empty. Cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 10:01, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Oops, now done. KJP1 (talk) 10:33, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

​ Sorry to be a pain, but I think you just patrolled the talk page rather than the article! GirthSummit _(blether) 10:43, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Sorry - technical issues are not my forte. Let me try to remember how to do NPP. KJP1 (talk) 13:49, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi KJP1, I'm just catching up after being away for the weekend. I do quite a bit of NPP, but since I'm the author the Curation Toolbar doesn't appear when I look at it the article. Assuming you're seeing the toolbar, it should be possible for you to just click the 'tick' button so it turns green, and then click 'Mark as Reviewed'. If the toolbar isn't appearing for you then something might have gone wrong... GirthSummit _(blether) 10:09, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Cullen Old Church/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: J Milburn (talk · contribs) 10:05, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

What a great topic. Happy to offer a review. Josh Milburn (talk) 10:05, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

• I definitely think the internal organs information is good for the lead, but it's a bit weird that it shares a sentence with the "first mentioned". Perhaps you could pair together the first mention and the promotion to collegiate status.

Y I think I paired them like that because I was mentioning the significant events in its history in chronological order. I've split them up as you suggested, and reworded slightly.

• Why chaplainry? The OED calls the word "chiefly historical". Either way, a wikilink would be helpful.

Y I used 'chaplainry' because that's the word used in the Pevsner guide, as well as on the Church's own website; however, the McKean book uses the word chaplaincy, so I've changed it to that, and inserted a wikilink to Chaplain.

• You don't specifically mention the denomination prior to it becoming Church of Scotland. (And we have a category: Category:Former Roman Catholic churches in Scotland.)

Y I originally didn't bother with this, since all mediaeval Scottish churches would have originally been part of the Roman Catholic church; I've added the category you suggested, and a few words to the lead explaining that it would have originally been RC, and has been CoS since the reformation. Also added the category.

• I don't think we can really describe tombs as "fine" in Wikipedia's neutral voice.

Y Would 'ornately carved' be acceptable do you think?

• For "Ogilvy and Gordon", would links to Clan Ogilvy and Clan Gordon be appropriate?

Y Added links

• "Wooden pews throughout are later 19th century" A little too concise, perhaps. There are wooden pews throughout that were added in the later 19th century", perhaps?

Y Done.

• What does "polygonal profiling" mean? The description is a little technical in places; this isn't too much of a problem when wikilinks can be provided, but I couldn't quickly find one for this.

Y I've removed the description. It's the phrase used in the source - I interpret it to mean that the ceiling meets the wall with some additional angled surfaces, rather than a straightforward right angle, but I can't find a more detailed description so any further expansion would probably be OR. I've reinstated the description, with a link to Coffer, per KJP1.

• Similarly, could I perhaps ask for a wikilink for "galleried"? Something from the list at Gallery (architecture), perhaps?

Y This was a tricky one - the best description is probably the first line from Gallery (architecture) itself, meaning a balcony inside a building. (The glossary in Pevsner describes a gallery as 'an upper storey above the aisle of a church, looking through arches to the nave'.) I think a new article on galleries in church might be something for me to work on if I can find some sources!

• And what's a laird's loft? Sorry if I'm coming across as ignorant; I'm just keen that this is accessible to a general reader!

Y So, this is a common feature in old Scottish churches - it's a type of gallery, raised above the general level of the church, where the principal family of the parish could sit apart from the hoi polloi. Again, I think there is an article in this, but for now I've replaced the first mention of the phrase with 'gallery', and I've added a parenthetical explanation to the second use of it. I think it would be a shame to remove the phrase entirely from the article - it is actually the (locally) correct and generally used term for the structure.

• "Ogilvy and Gordon" The families, or particular individuals?

YAh, I see the confusion, that was my fault - Ogilvy and Gordon refers to Alexander Ogilvy and Elizabeth Gordon, who are mentioned in more detail in the next paragraph - I must have moved the text around at some point so I'm referring to them just by their surnames before I actually explain who they are. I've rephrased both paragraphs to make this clearer.

• Again, "fine monuments" comes across as a little non-neutral.

Y As with the previous example, I've changed this to 'ornately carved'.

• Is the plural of Oglivy really Oglivies? I remember being taught not to change proper nouns with plurals (we have two Pollys, not "two Pollies"). I might be wrong, though.

Y You're right, I've changed it.

• "earliest and finest examples" Again; I worry about calling these things "fine".

Y You're highlighting how repetitive I can be! I've changed it to 'earliest and best preserved', which is what I believe the source meant.

• An image of one of the historical figures associated with the church may add some visual interest to the history section

Y Done - I've added an image of Elizabeth de Burgh (she of the buried innards) and her husband. There's also an image of the Dowager Countess of Seafield I could add, but I think two might be too many?

• You could think about using Help:Columns to trim whitespace in the list of ministers.

Y Done - thanks, I'd never used columns before, another handy trick.

• "it was designated a Category A listed building in 1972" This is mentioned in the lead, but nowhere else.

Y Yep, an oversight, added with source

• Category:Listed churches in Scotland?

Y What a lot of categories there are! Added, thanks, I'll go and add it to the other article I've written about churches.

I could quibble a little about the sources, but I think that all looks fine for GA purposes. I really enjoyed reading this, and I'm sure I'll be promoting soon. Josh Milburn (talk) 10:56, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

J Milburn, hi, and thanks for giving this such a thorough review. I'll go through your points and attempt to address them; should I ping you again once I've finished? (This is my first GA review, so not sure exactly how the communication is supposed to work). Cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 16:15, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Please excuse the stalking, I was planning to pick this up before JM beat me to it. Polygonal profiling is like this, raised polygonal shapes undertaken in plaster. But I've no idea what shapes are used at Cullen, any straight-lined two-dimensional shape would qualify. I think the closest term is something like Coffer? And a laird’s loft is a loft (seating area) reserved for the laird. The English equivalent would be squire’s pew. Hope this helps. KJP1 (talk) 17:18, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi KJP1 - thanks, that's really helpful! I was obviously mistaken in my reading of the source - I'll use a link to Coffer and reinstate the phrase. Really appreciate that. GirthSummit _(blether) 18:23, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Josh Milburn - I've been through your points above - very helpful, thank you again. There are a couple (I've put yellow ticks to indicate them) where you might want to review what I've done to see whether you agree this is better, or if further improvement would be helpful. Cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 18:51, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

@KJP1: Please don't worry about stepping on my toes; GS and I would, I'm sure, welcome any other comments you have! Josh Milburn (talk) 20:51, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

• "the chapel was raised to a collegiate church," Is it accurate to call it a "chapel"?

Y No, that was a mistake - it had already been raised from a chapel to a parish church at that point, I've reworded.

• It is not usual to centralise captions. I'm not going to make a fuss if you're attached to centralised captions, though.

Y No, I've got no special attachment to them - I copied the caption template from another article, it must have been centralised.

Other than that, if you're happy with my latest round of edits (and KJP1 doesn't have anything to add), I'm happy to promote. Josh Milburn (talk) 17:02, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm more than happy with your latest edits - I think you've knocked off a lot of the rougher edges and greatly enhanced the flow of some of the prose, overall a great improvement. Thanks for taking the time to do all that. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:49, 8 July 2019 (UTC)