Talk:Culture of Ukraine

"Respect for authority", really?

Raising that kind of thing on the level of separate is quite disproportionate, and as such, certainly violates the NPOV rule. I don't see any passages about "respect for authority" in any other articles about regional cultures, although there are definitely differences in it. Furthermore, the sole purpose of that subsection is to demonstrate the reputed disrespect as a negative feature. For comparison: everybody who knows anything about Russian culture knows the famous saying of historian Nikolai Karamzin about summarizing Russia in one word: "Stealing" ("Voruyut"). There is no subsection about theft and corruption in the article Culture of Russia, despite news about it reaching international media about twice a week. Well, at least "world's highest vodka consumption" is mentioned there, although not a word about drinking being a problem in Russia. In the article Culture of the United States there is a subsection titled "Gun culture" without a word about school shooting and mass murders which in the eyes of foreigners are an outstanding feature of the U.S. culture, in heavy contrast to other developed countries. My point is not that we should insert dirt-digging subsections in the articles about different cultures, but that we don't do it as a rule, and we shouldn't do it with Ukraine, either. --Ehitaja (talk) 11:59, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree. I've done a comparison of "Culture of country X" articles surrounding Ukraine, and none of them focuses on socio-economic/political problems in a society. (The templates for every article have these sections: "History People Languages Mythology and folklore Cuisine Festivals Religion Art Literature Music and performing arts Media Sport Monuments Symbols". The text of each article roughly follows this structure as well.) Not that something like corruption cannot be part of "culture" (arguably it is), but mentioning such issues in "Culture of country X" articles appears not in line with established conventions of English Wikipedia. I think we best remove this section. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:59, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree in every one of the points of User:Nederlandse Leeuw. However, I still think it is appropriate to mention what I think is the point behind the previously mentioned section: i.e. that most Ukrainians traditionally not only identify with, but actively engage in antiestablishmentarianism. Something which can arguably be traced back to the Cossack rebellions, laying a red thread throughout most of Polish-Lithuanian and Imperial Russian history. (And arguably also Soviet history, though of course with a different character). —VladVP (talk) 20:51, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, I wonder whether 1. this is demonstrable with reliable sources and not just some invented tradition. After all, a great many other 'national' cultures (including the one I grew up in) claim to be rebellious, anti-authority, freedom-loving etc. and often tie that to a narrative of national history as a series of rebellions against foreign domination, usually culminating in a declaration/war of independence that is cited as 'the vindication of the freedom-loving spirit of the nation', or something along those lines. 2. Even if we were to find RS backing up such claims, I'm not sure if this is the appropriate article for it. Ukrainian nationalism seems more the place to discuss such ideas about national identity or character etc. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:09, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022. Rei (talk) 00:40, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 16 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. per WP:NCCST and WP:TITLECON. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 16:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

---

Culture of Ukraine → Ukrainian culture – No sources in the article are talking about "Culture of Ukraine" but of "Ukrainian culture" as well as article content. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). --Ahecht (TALKReply
PAGE) 13:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 16:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

• @Manyareasexpert: There's certainly a WP:TITLECON argument to be made for keeping it at Culture of Ukraine, since nearly every article in Category:Culture by country use "Culture of...". --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 21:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, thanks! The title should be Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject per WP:TITLE first of all, and it's "Ukrainian culture". WP:TITLE follows with There is often more than one appropriate title for an article but it's not our case. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

  WP:NCCST is less clear than I'd prefer on this topic. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 00:49, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  While the Culture of Poland article covers the culture of Poland, to this or that extent, this article however covers the culture of Ukrainians, not Ukraine. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:TITLECON. Also, not exclusively about ethnic culture, as the arts and customs sections for example also refer to the country. Mellk (talk) 12:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose per WP:TITLECON
  We should observe WP:TITLE first

  Oppose per WP:TITLECON. Also, not exclusively about ethnic culture, as the arts and customs sections for example also refer to the country.
  You mean the "During the invasion of Ukraine by Russia" part? Should we create separated "Ukrainian culture" then? As the article both content and sources are actually mostly dedicated to "Ukrainian culture". ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:32, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  Consistency is part of WP:CRITERIA. All other countries from what I can see use "country of..." and Ukraine as a nation-state exists. The only exception I see for this is a few cultures for peoples without nation-states. Also, as I said, there are different sections that refer to the country. For example, religion starts off with: Religion is practiced throughout the country. Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Eastern Catholicism and Roman Catholicism are the three most widely practiced religions. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is the largest in the country. Another example, architecture, mentions: Different regions in Ukraine have their own distinctive style of vernacular architecture, based on local traditions and the knowledge handed down through generations. Mellk (talk) 12:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  First, you need to change the scope of the article to focus solely on ethnic Ukrainian culture, although I do not think there would be support for this. Mellk (talk) 12:59, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject. There is often more than one appropriate title for an article. In that case, editors choose the best title by consensus based on the considerations that this page explains. A good Wikipedia article title has the five following characteristics: WP:TITLE and the criteria are applied only after that. Other articles may be about countries' cultures but this article content is mostly about Ukrainian culture which is widespread across to where Ukrainians live so consistency do not apply here. So the article title should be fixed to represent what the article itself is about. Another article on culture in Ukraine could be created however. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:08, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  I have just shown you that the article is not just about ethnic Ukrainian culture, rather the culture of the country. Until, you can get consensus to change the scope of the article, it should not be moved. Mellk (talk) 13:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  It's still mostly about Ukrainian culture, with about 2250 words vs ~700 words about the culture of Ukraine. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:18, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  Ukrainian culture falls under the culture of Ukraine, and not vice-versa. Sports for example refers to the national team. Tourism and the rest of the popular culture is again about the country. Anyway, I have made my argument. Mellk (talk) 13:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  Those are different [intersecting] topics. The culture of Ukraine includes the culture of all the people living in Ukraine, including Jews, Turks, Greeks, and so on. Cinema, concert halls, cultural sites and so on are covered by it. Ukrainian culture is widespread among the places where Ukrainians live among the globe. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ukrainian culture

Since it was decided this article will be about the Culture of Ukraine, I moved chapters related to Ukrainian culture to corresponding Ukrainian culture article, please continue my work, thanks! ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

As already mentioned, this is a content fork which does not have any consensus. The result of the RM was not moved. Mellk (talk) 19:34, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Ukrainian culture and Culture of Ukraine are still two different (although intersecting) topics, where's the disagreement? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:25, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Did you read WP:CONTENTFORK? Mellk (talk) 20:31, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

It looks like we agree those are two different topics but you still are in disagreement on something? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:54, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@Barkeep49, you have reverted [1] the recent addition to Ukrainian culture, apparently without seeing this discussion. On a move discussion, it was decided that this page will be about the culture in Ukraine, so I went ahead and created Ukrainian culture page, and moved the related content there.

I mean, Ukrainian culture is not limited to Ukraine and is spread across the globe, including Canada, see Ukrainian cultural traditions in Canada: Theatre, choral music and dance, 1891-1967. (uottawa.ca) , Brazil - Project MUSE - The Ukrainian Cultural Landscape in Canada and Brazil: A Century of Change and Divergence (jhu.edu), and other countries, it doesn't belong here, isn't it obvious? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 23:02, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@Manyareasexpert what you wrote was a WP:CONTENTFORK and it was not clear at the time of my restoring the redirect that the fork met the criteria of WP:RELAR which seems to be what you are advocating for. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

That's why I invited you here where arguments regarding Ukrainian Culture article were presented. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:15, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Have we reached the point where all the arguments against Ukrainian Culture are attended and we can process with our work on it? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:19, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Greetings @Rosguill, we exchanged arguments here regarding Ukrainian culture per WP:TALKDONTREVERT, can you help us reach the final consensus here. Let me list arguments regarding Ukrainian culture again:

• Those are not a content fork but different topics, with Ukrainian culture covering culture of Ukrainians in Ukraine and abroad, the difference being in particular it covering culture of Ukrainian diaspora, culture of Ukrainians in Canada, Brazil, US, and so on, and Culture of Ukraine topic covering culture of Ukraine, and the difference being in particular covering the culture of Tatars, Greeks, Jews, and Ukrainians, and so on, all the people living in Ukraine, all in Ukraine.
• And there are sources covering "Ukrainian culture" topic (see Spirit of Ukraine - Ukrainian Contributions to World's Culture - Google Books, Exploring Ukrainian Culture : a Resource Manual from the Ukrainian Cultural... - Google Books, (PDF) Lectures in the History of Ukrainian Culture (researchgate.net), History of Ukrainian Culture (knmu.edu.ua), The Cossack Chronicles and the Development of Modern Ukrainian Culture and National Identity on JSTOR), justifying its existence.

See also academic work talking about differences between two subjects in a section below Talk:Culture of Ukraine#Definition.

And regarding the Move decision: the discussion decided this article to be about "Culture of Ukraine", so, respecting that, I moved the content not related to the Culture of Ukraine, but belonging to Ukrainian culture, to the corresponding page [2]. The decision is not preventing us to have a page covering different topic.
Thanks! ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:37, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The question is, do these sources describe "the culture of Ukraine outside of Ukraine", or a "Ukrainian culture" outside Ukraine that is distinct from Ukrainian culture inside Ukraine. The onus is on you to demonstrate a case for the latter, which does not appear self-evident. As for the distinction of a Ukrainian ethnic group and diaspora, separate from other groups living in Ukraine, that seems like content most appropriate for Ukrainians and not a case for a separate "culture" article. I note that currently, most of the information in the Culture sections of Ukrainians is reproduced from Culture of Ukraine, somewhat undermining the case for separating coverage of the culture across more articles. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:05, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I decided to do a bit more digging about precedent in terms of how these articles are organized, and it seems that we do not typically have separate "Xian cultue" and "Culture of X" articles, even for countries with both a) significant minority ethnic groups distinct from the ethnic group that is named after the country (or vice versa) and b) international communities of expatriates. See: Russian culture (redirect to Culture of Russia), American culture (redirect to Culture of the United States), Vietnamese culture (redirect to Culture of Vietnam), Turkish culture (redirect to Culture of Turkey) _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

it seems that we do not typically have separate "Xian cultue" and "Culture of X" articles
Yes, and this concerns me. I. e. where should I put "Ukrainian culture in Canada", "Ukrainian culture in Brazil", "Ukrainian culture in Portugal" sections? There are plenty of sources on this Ukrainian cultural traditions in Canada: Theatre, choral music and dance, 1891-1967. (uottawa.ca) , Ukrainian Canadians | The Canadian Encyclopedia . ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

it would be appropriate to mention at Culture of Ukraine, as the scope of the article is the totality of Ukrainian culture, both in the sense of culture that has occurred in Ukraine and culture that has been performed by Ukrainians elsewhere. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:22, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Well it is better then to have no place to put it in.
But it still contradicts the definition given below: History of Ukrainian Culture (knmu.edu.ua):
You can find in the scientific literature two definitions: Ukrainian culture and culture of Ukraine. They are not identical. Ukrainian culture is the result of creativity of all Ukrainians (even that groups and communities where live abroad). Culture of Ukraine includes masterpieces of representatives of other nations and cultures, but they existed and created on the territory of our state (Ukraine) or the Crimean peninsula. For example, the mosk (DjumaOdjami) in Evpatoria was designed by Hoca Mimar Sinan (? –1588), the famous Ottoman architect. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:24, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

…and this distinction is already addressed by having a separate article for Ukrainians. I’m also a bit disinclined to follow the English terminological prescriptions of a source using such broken English. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

it would be appropriate to mention at Culture of Ukraine
Well it got rejected [3]. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

"the culture of Ukraine outside of Ukraine"
Heard little if nothing of any culture of Ukraine outside of Ukraine. If so, it probably is not a culture of Ukraine: Culture of Ukraine includes masterpieces of representatives of other nations and cultures, but they existed and created on the territory of our state (Ukraine).

, or a "Ukrainian culture" outside Ukraine that is distinct from Ukrainian culture inside Ukraine
It must not be distinct. In fact, the opposite is true: sources on Ukrainian culture abroad describe how the same Ukrainian culture is spread and preserved by Ukrainians living abroad: Ukrainian cultural traditions in Canada: Theatre, choral music and dance, 1891-1967. (uottawa.ca) The Ukrainians in Canada have, as a group, endeavoured to preserve and propagate their cultural traditions in their adopted homeland from the arrival of the first settlers in 1891 to the present day. They have attempted to mold themselves by means of their own cultural traditions, as a separate ethnic entity, possessing their own innate values and distinct cultural characteristics. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:17, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The above quotes comprise a further argument for covering that material within the scope of Culture of Ukraine, as they are treated by RS as being intertwined and thus we should present them to readers that way, instead of separating them into separate pages. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Definition

Greetings @AirshipJungleman29, your change [4] of "Ukrainian culture" to "The culture of Ukraine", while goes in line with the article name, is an obvious indicator that there should be Ukrainian culture page: to define the culture of Ukraine as being composed of the material and spiritual values of the Ukrainian people that has formed throughout the history of Ukraine. Strong family values and religion, alongside the traditions of Ukrainian embroidery and folk music are integral aspects of the country’s culture is not correct. That's not the definition of the culture of Ukraine, but much closer to the definition of Ukrainian culture.

See also, for example, History of Ukrainian Culture (knmu.edu.ua):
You can find in the scientific literature two definitions: Ukrainian culture and culture of Ukraine. They are not identical. Ukrainian culture is the result of creativity of all Ukrainians (even that groups and communities where live abroad). Culture of Ukraine includes masterpieces of representatives of other nations and cultures, but they existed and created on the territory of our state (Ukraine) or the Crimean peninsula. For example, the mosk (DjumaOdjami) in Evpatoria was designed by Hoca Mimar Sinan (? –1588), the famous Ottoman architect. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps there is some sort of language difference here.... are you referring to Ukrainian diaspora? Moxy🍁 21:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Ukrainians abroad are Ukrainian diaspora, and the source says that Ukrainian culture is the result of creativity of all Ukrainians (even that groups and communities where live abroad), i. e. Ukrainian culture includes the description of their diaspora's culture, but the Culture of Ukraine article - Culture of Ukraine includes masterpieces of representatives of other nations and cultures, but they existed and created on the territory of our state (Ukraine) - is not including that. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:22, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

This doesn't make any sense. Until this is explained legibly I don't foresee anything happening. Moxy🍁 21:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Well perhaps I didn't understand what you are asking? Ukrainian diaspora is the community of Ukrainians abroad. Where do we go from here? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that Ukrainians in Ukraine have a different culture than Ukrainian diaspora around the world? Moxy🍁 21:41, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

That's not for us do decide but to describe the similarity or differences, as well as other aspects, like representation, spread, coverage, mixing aspects, and others, per RSs. Which are plenty available on Ukrainian culture subject. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it's fairly clear, MAE is talking about the distinction between "the total sum of culture by people of any ethnicity living within the borders of Ukraine" and "culture produced by ethnic Ukrainians anywhere". But we already present this distinction of topics through having separate articles for Culture of Ukraine and Ukrainians--an article about an ethnic group is inherently an article about its culture, it is redundant and a disservice to readers to create a separate article titled Ukrainian culture that is just about the cultural exploits of Ukrainians. It would also be unprecedented among countries/ethnicities covered on Wikpedia, as far as I can tell _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

the distinction between "the total sum of culture by people of any ethnicity living within the borders of Ukraine" and "culture produced by ethnic Ukrainians anywhere"
exactly

an article about an ethnic group is inherently an article about its culture, it is redundant and a disservice to readers to create a separate article titled Ukrainian culture that is just about the cultural exploits of Ukrainians
Why? As soon as there are enough independent RSs covering the article subject per Wikipedia:Notability, the article has all the rights to exist. WP:NOTPAPER. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:45, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

What's wrong with Ukrainians#Culture? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Nothing wrong, and it's also OK to have an article dedicated to the topic. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, but a digital encyclopedia project. There is no practical limit to the number of topics Wikipedia can cover, or the total amount of content - WP:NOTPAPER . We have the subject that is notable per Wikipedia:Notability so I went ahead and created separate article. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Did you bother to read further than those two sentences? I suspect not, seeing as you clearly did not read the discussion you cited in this edit summary; if you had, you would have seen that there is no consensus for the change. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:55, 4 June 2024 (UTC)