Talk:Culture of the United States

possible misspelling in gun culture section

Ownership of handguns, while not uncommon, is less common than ownership of long guns.

after the coma before is.

if spelled wrong please if not ignore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.163.84.28 (talk) 16:54, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 March 2023

Change this:

The fast food and chain businesses along the highway in Breezewood, Pennsylvania have been used on the internet to represent the culture of the United States.

To this:

The Statue of Liberty is considered an American icon and a symbol of its culture.

I believe the Statue of Liberty is a more appropriate image to use to represent American culture and its ideas, not an image of Breezewood. Dufhrug87rsg (talk) 18:20, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Actualcpscm (talk) 18:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

Along with the original request, I would "Support" changing the lead image to the Statue of Liberty, which is a universal symbol of American culture. I would also be open to other ideas, but the current image is very piss poor to represent the overarching topic of "Culture of the United States". Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

The cited UNESCO source doesn’t support the wording of the Statue of Liberty caption. The Statue of Liberty is also a symbol that is heavy with nationalism—not good for Wikipedia’s policy of NPOV. إيان (talk) 04:04, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

And how is a meme about Breezewood, Pennsylvania any more neutral?

Per their article: Breezewood has been labeled a "tourist trap" and choke point because traffic between I-70 and the Turnpike is routed along surface streets lined with gas stations, hotels, restaurants, and traffic lights, rather than directly via a freeway-to-freeway junction KlayCax (talk) 19:39, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@إيان: KlayCax (talk) 18:44, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

The Statue of Liberty is too nationalistic for an article on "Culture of the United States"? A statue that was a gift from the French? The same statue is that is the most iconic symbol of immigration and acceptance? The same statue that has enscribed upon it "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore." is too nationalistic? Violating WP:NPOV is a laughable claim here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:46, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

• Don't change, for now. The fact that the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France alone should disqualify it. Let's have a picture of something purely American. What I'd like to see is a shot that is a visual representation of the article's opening: "American culture, encompasses various social behaviors, institutions, and norms in the United States, including forms of speech, literature, music, visual arts, performing arts, food, religion, law, technology as well as other customs, beliefs, and forms of knowledge. American culture has been shaped by the history of the United States, its geography, and various internal and external forces and migrations." I am not claiming that the SoL is a violation of any policy, but it is rather propagandistic. Whereas Breezewood, well that is America, an America that can be seen in a thousand (non-scientific number) different versions across the country. The SoL is one and it is in NYC. This other view is almost everywhere. For a statue I'd rather see Mt Rushmore, which at least is made in America by an American. But let's see if we can't come up with am image that we all can agree represents American culture. Carptrash (talk) 21:42, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

  That is a silly defense for putting a highway rest stop as the header image of an article about the culture of the US. Similar sights can be seen along highways in most countries outside of the US - highway-side development is ubiquitous in the UK, does that mean a picture of that is more emblematic of British culture than Big Ben is, or Westminster Abbey?

Also the "Give me your tired" quote is not really inscribed on the statue. Carptrash (talk) 21:53, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

The Breezewood, Pennsylvania picture - inserted without consensus - is clearly intended to be a POV-pushing picture. (Check the sources used.)

If we're going to take down the Statue of Liberty picture as "NPOV-violating" and "bias". Then it's absolutely laughable to have a picture of Breezewood (an infamous tourist trap in the United States) simultaneously inserted into the article. KlayCax (talk) 22:58, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

The French gave it to us, so we can't use it? More absurdity. Again, I'm open to other suggestions, but the reasons against the SoL are laughable. If you are going to vote down a suggestion, present a better option, or if you are going to make a policy claim, make a proper one. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:25, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Please do not put words in my mouth. Or words off my keyboard. I did not say that we "can't" use the SoL picture. Nor do I find my perspective to be absurd. Such comments do not help us reach some consensus. Please explain how this statue, a gift from the people of France, which was designed by French sculptor Frédéric Auguste Bartholdi on a metal metal framework by another Frenchman Gustave Eiffel in 1886 is a good symbol for American culture in 2023. This statue that "is the most iconic symbol of immigration and acceptance," is not really appropriate at a time when much of American culture is wildly anti-immigrant and not really prone to acceptance. This seems more like wishful thinking than anything else. Perhaps we should make a list of the traits that make up American culture and figure out a picturre from there. Carptrash (talk) 05:18, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

"Perhaps we should make a list of the traits that make up American culture" I would suggest listing xenophobia, anti-intellectualism, reactionary views, and superstition. Dimadick (talk) 13:10, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

So perhaps a picture of neo-nazis demonstrating at the Wall? Interesting, but I doubt it would help us get to consensus. Carptrash (talk) 17:14, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

There is no good evidence to suggest that the United States is (in the modern day) any more anti-immigrant than other countries.

Denmark, Sweden, France, Italy, Poland, Hungary, the United Kingdom, et al. all have/had notable movements opposed to (at least to a certain extent) immigration. Popular polling also suggests that the United States is no more anti-immigrant than other countries. Opposition to immigration and prejudicial attitudes on other issues have also dramatically fallen.

We similarly don't put an image of Golden Dawn (despite the fact that they received almost received 10% of the vote in the 2014 European Parliament elections) for the same reason. Or hypothetically having articles link the culture of Germany to Hitler, the culture of Belgium to Leopold II of Belgium, or the culture of Turkey to the Armenian genocide. Of course topics race, ethnicity, and heritage relate to the U.S. — including works like Uncle Tom's Cabin and To Kill A Mockingbird — but the current article is definitely not how to do it.

Presently, much of this article fails the standards of WP: NPOV, and the quality of it has gone down significantly in the past year. KlayCax (talk) 18:49, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that any one here is suggesting that the United States is any more anti-immigrant than other countries but I don't see where bringing other countries into the discussion is helpful. As far as American attitudes towards gay marriage is concerned, (your link) well are you suggesting that we use the Rainbow flag as the image? Interesting, I'll have to think about that. Carptrash (talk) 22:18, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

• Don't change, for now, per some of the points raised by Carptrash. KlayCax don't forsake the discussion to try to railroad your POV, as you have done at the United States article. It's WP:disruptive editing. إيان (talk) 19:00, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

If we're removing the Statue of Liberty for having a positive connotation. How is an image of Breezewood not a negative connotation?

Breezewood was added in just recently. So it's not like it's been long standing precedent. What did did Carptrash state? إيان? KlayCax (talk) 19:02, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Also - as I tagged you yesterday - I'm placing a NPOV tag and writing a 1,500-2,000 word response on talk today/early tomorrow. (As of central standard time - 2:00 PM/14:00 - right now.) KlayCax (talk) 19:06, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

There's no need for talk page manifestos. Besides, aren't we still waiting for your draft that you promised at talk:United States?

And yes—this article, US culture, has major issues and there are many ways it can be improved. Wouldn't your efforts be more fruitful if directed toward that? إيان (talk) 04:21, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm presently in residency. My response is going to have to be long because there's a lot of issues with the present United States and Culture of the United States articles that I wanted to lay out clearly + in detail.

Wouldn't your efforts be more fruitful if directed toward that? What do you mean? KlayCax (talk) 22:01, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

I like Carptrash's idea: What I'd like to see is a shot that is a visual representation of the article's opening: "American culture, encompasses various social behaviors, institutions, and norms in the United States, including forms of speech, literature, music, visual arts, performing arts, food, religion, law, technology as well as other customs, beliefs, and forms of knowledge. American culture has been shaped by the history of the United States, its geography, and various internal and external forces and migrations."

And also if a new image is to be chosen, their call to make a list of the traits that make up American culture and figure out a picture from there.

The Statue of Liberty image wasn't voted down for having a positive connotation, as you see it, and similarly the Breezewood image wasn't added because of any negative connotation. The Breezewood image is appropriate because A) Breezewood has been widely, popularly, recently, and democratically used to represent American culture, B) it encapsulates many dominant features of American culture, such as car culture, fast food, highways, chain stores, etc. C) it's not an image that comes from a nationalist vision of American culture. إيان (talk) 19:42, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I am not suggesting removing the SoL "for having a positive connotation." I am suggesting not putting it back because it, at best, represents the USA 150 (carpmath) years ago. I feel that we need a picture that represents American culture now. So I am curious as to what the objections to the Breezewood picture might be. Okay, it ain't that pretty at all, but it is pretty real. As mentioned above, it contains "many dominant features of American culture, such as car culture, fast food, highways, chain stores, etc." I'd throw in "mass culture" too, and perhaps something about the American political system and how it intertwines with commercial interests. (That from the history of how Breezewood got there) So come up with a suggested image that includes as many facets of American culture as this and if it is a more positive image, that's fine with me. Carptrash (talk) 20:06, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I second Carptrash here. إيان (talk) 04:27, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Block evasion by User:Dcasey98.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
All of the things you claim are "dominant facets of American culture" are absurdly general and could be said to dominate any number of countries - every country has had their own variations of "fast food", chain stores were not invented in, nor are they unique to the US, "car culture" is nebulously American - it is not American in any specific way. And it clearly has a negative connotation - it is an anti-American meme that tries to position the US as "ugly" or dysfunctional, and that is the viewpoint pushed in the article linked. Posting a picture like of an early skyscraper, like the Tribune Tower, for example, would be more emblematic, and less negative POV-pushing. These buildings are distinctive, and exhibit styles popular in the US at the time. They are also very ubiquitous in the US, but are not common elsewhere in the world - highway exits and associated developments like gas stations and fast food drive thrus are ubiquitous elsewhere in the world, whereas the early skyscrapers of the US represent something much more unique to the US, its economy, its architecture, and its history. Threefrgy (talk) 01:17, 5 April 2023 (UTC) Threefrgy do you have any reliable sources you’d like to present in support of your POV? إيان (talk) 01:31, 5 April 2023 (UTC) The Tribune Tower, among other early Chicago skyscrapers, are cited by UNESCO for inclusion as a potential World Heritage site. In this article, they also discuss how other American cities like Buffalo, St. Louis, and New York City built such structures. There's any number of articles that discuss the groundbreaking precedent set by the US in building these elaborate structures that went on to inspire the construction of skyscrapers worldwide. The Chicago school is quite specific to the US. An early skyscraper like the Tribune Tower would be a much more appropriate header image for this page than the Breezewood picture is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Threefrgy (talk • contribs) All of the things you claim are "dominant facets of American culture" are absurdly general and could be said to dominate any number of countries - every country has had their own variations of "fast food", chain stores were not invented in, nor are they unique to the US, "car culture" is nebulously American - it is not American in any specific way. Any reliable sources for all this POV? ^ إيان (talk) 05:17, 5 April 2023 (UTC) Wikipedia pages for all the subjects you mentioned have already aggregated plenty of sources to negate the idea that any of the things you cited as being especially emblematic of American culture are specifically "American" in any way (Chain stores, Fast food, the Car) - the biggest argument you have for that image being emblematic of "American culture" at all is an overly-specific point about highway-side development as shown in the picture possibly being of American origin, or the modern "fast food chain", but even if we take that to be true, that is an inadequate picture to place at the top of a page dedicated to the culture of the United States. The picture is absolutely associated with an internet meme that intends to depict the United States negatively, as this article is quoted as saying "the photo and the town itself has been associated with several image macros and critiques in recent years, often with commentary about the supposed lack of American culture or the effects of unfettered capitalism". So it's not permissable to put such a photo as a header of a page on American culture. If you want to put it on the page, put it in the 'automobiles and commuting' section. If it was literally any other country, such an edit would've been deleted immediately, but because it's the terrible United States, it's immediately accepted, and we have to use the talk page to debate for over a month about whether or not to remove an obviously anti-American internet meme that is being posted as the header image of the 'Culture of the United States' page? Plenty have advocated for its removal. You added the photo to the page, and you are one of two individuals insisting on keeping it. You are gatekeeping the page. Threefrgy (talk) 06:34, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

• "Support" lead image change. Breezewood, Pennsylvania image falls into MOS:IMAGEQUALITY; too small, hidden in clutter, unreadable at thumb, needs a caption to even tell you why its there?. Statue of Liberty is at least readable but sorta just says "America". A good lead image for the article may be Jazz, [1], [2], can't say everything in the lead but at least it should be readable. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 00:50, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I actually like the Louis Armstrong image, the second one is ok but not my first choice. American Jazz is certainly representative of American culture, and Louis Armstrong is certainly representative of American Jazz. I like that at least as good as the Statue of Liberty, as it is more about culture and less about the US in a generic sense. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:54, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Comment - I think one should have iconic images in the culture lead. The Statue of Liberty is a great idea, so is Uncle Sam. I think we can have an array of several pictures representing Jazz (say Nina Simone picture?), Statue of Liberty, Uncle Sam... I don't think an internet meme picture is appropriate in this case, no matter one's stance on American car culture and urban planning. So overall I support. Homerethegreat (talk) 10:18, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Block evasion by User:Dcasey98.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
"Support" lead image change. Breezewood, and its associated source, violates WP:NPOV, as the online obsession with Breezewood largely stems from an internet meme that contrasts the US unfavorably with Europe by cherry-picking images obviously seen by most as "ugly". It's beyond the realm of believability that someone posting this picture is being un-biased when so much of the Internet has typically slandered the US by unfairly representing its culture as being "nothing but McDonald's". An image that supports that bias being posted as the header of such a major article about the US is clearly agenda-pushing. Also, the image simply doesn't belong as the header image. If you wanted to put this image in under the "Automobiles and Commuting" section of the page, that would make sense - it is a very inadequate header image. I suggest using The Tribune Tower, emblematic of early 20th century architecture that can be observed in a number of US cities instead, for reasons already stated. Threefrgy (talk) 02:04, 5 April 2023 (UTC) As I said earlier Don't change, for now,. To remove an image, or anything, claiming that "here has been a consensus to remove the image" when there clearly has not is weaselly almost beyond words. What are we supposed to think? What are we supposed to do? The vote here is 3 to 2 against change now but you just declare yourself the winner. Has a familiar ring to it, for sure Carptrash (talk) 16:23, 5 April 2023 (UTC) "Weaselly"? The person who posted an anti-American internet meme as the header image of a page on US culture is gatekeeping the page to make sure no one removes it - and you call me weaselly?. He is one of the people suggesting don't change. You have zero defense. Which is why your response addressed none of the points I made. Threefrgy (talk) 01:18, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

So, rank choice:

1. , no image, topic is broad, this is a WP:SUMMARY article and the infobox may be enough.
2. , Statue of Liberty, this is a WP:SUMMARY article and that is a summary image and does follow MOS:LEADIMAGE "of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works"
3. , Louis?, hits it at a slant instead of trying to hit something on the nose.

Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 01:58, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Block evasion by User:Dcasey98.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Can my image be presented as an option? Threefrgy (talk) 03:40, 10 April 2023 (UTC) It sure can. My list is personal and probably not even that well thought out. I would note another contender used on several foreign language Wikipedias - File:Motherhood and apple pie.jpg. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:20, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Support, I think we should change the main image to the statue of liberty or some other image. It's a universally recognized american symbol. I've seen some people call the image nationalistic, which is something I strongly disagree with.--Zyxrq (talk) 23:51, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Support per Dennis Brown: It was gifted America by the French, thus it ain't American? It's nationalistic because it is quite literally to welcome immigrants? Bizarre. The current images are OK, but still not as widely-recognized as the statue. Then there's, uh...a WP:RECENT meme denigrating America (imagine if someone put on Culture of the United Kingdom a negative depiction of them, like Bloody Sunday) and not even fully representing American culture (well, one notes a negative depiction of a culture would always omit something). Heavy Water (talk • contribs) 00:09, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 13 March 2024

Replace the first citation needed tag with this source https://isso.ucsf.edu/us-culture 172.58.209.83 (talk) 07:05, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done
— Urro^{[talk][edits]} ⋮ 18:07, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Colin Woodard

Is Woodard really a "cultural geographer" (whatever that is)? He wrote a pop history book or two on the subject, which should not be cited as legitimate scholarship. Woodard isn't an academic authority on either history or culture Jonathan f1 (talk) 21:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 July 2024

Remove template corrections as it has been fixed. 64.189.18.51 (talk) 13:46, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: This article still contains vast swathes of unsourced information, with many statements tagged inline with , so the banner atop the article remains valid. Left guide (talk) 06:59, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

help

Hi please can you add back Arab American https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Culture_of_the_United_States&oldid=1240114799 it has been undone due to edit warring.5.144.178.206 (talk) 09:03, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive edit warring g

Hi please can you add back Arab American https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Culture_of_the_United_States&oldid=1240114799 It has been removed due to edit warring. 5.144.178.206 (talk) 09:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)