Talk:Curaçao (liqueur)

Merging Orange Curacao

Support Sure, there's no reason two have to articles for the same thing. Gws57 15:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Support Orange Curacao is only superficially different Gapple 00:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Since the merge looks to be uncontroversial, I'll go ahead and do it. - mako 01:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Synthetic?

I have removed ...
[[As of 2002]], most Curaçao liqueur is produced synthetically elsewhere.{{Fact|date=September 2007}}
... as it's vague and unreferenced. Maikel 20:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Valencias to Larahas?

Quote: A non-native plant, Larahas developed from Valencia oranges transplanted by Spanish explorers. While Valencias are sweet, the nutrient-poor soil and arid climate of Curaçao changed the fruit's taste, creating the Laraha. ... Larahas are bastardised bitter oranges, not bastardised Valencias. Maikel (talk) 13:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Probably the reference to Valencia was written by someone who got confused with Seville oranges. While both Seville and Valencia are cities in Spain, the entry for Valencia oranges places their origin in California. Valencia oranges were developed in the early 1800s, much too late to be the origin of Larahas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.164.64.114 (talk) 07:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I think you're right. I looked for a reference and found Fodor's Caribbean, which says Larahas are derived from Valencias. I suspect someone published the incorrect information at some point and it got picked up by the non-scientific press. But these are all subspecies and cultivars, which are notoriously hard to pin down. Since there is a separate articles on Laraha, and I can't find good refs on the subject, I think the thing to do is remove any comment on the origin of the laraha. Rees11 (talk) 13:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

% By Volume?

[www.curacaoliqueur.com] cites that the liqueur actually has a 31% Alcohol by Volume, whereas the page lists 21%. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.209.116.39 (talk) 04:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The actual ABV of curacao differs greatly by brand; I've seen it range from 20% to 40%. I'm not sure why someone keeps changing it to precisely 40%. I've edited the page to display the ABV as a range. Theglin (talk) 19:36, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Color

Is blue really more common than orange? That surprises me. I've looked for a ref but can't find one. Rees11 (talk) 14:32, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm having trouble finding a solid reference for that too, however the only Curacao I've ever seen is the blue variety, and they sell three different brands of it at my local liquor store, but none of any other color. Theglin (talk) 21:08, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Google reports ten times as many hits on "blue curacao" as on orange, and web shopping sites seem to list more blue than orange. I've only ever bought orange myself. It just seems very strange to me but I guess you learn something new every day. Rees11 (talk) 02:42, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Orange Curacao vs. Triple Sec

The Triple Sec article claims that there is a variety of Triple Sec known as "Orange Curacao". Is this the same as regular Orange Curacao, or something different just given the same name? And if so, should Orange Curacao redirect to Triple Sec instead of here? And if not - which one is used in Mai Tais? Lurlock (talk) 13:27, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

The "Orange Curaçao" (note spelling) mentioned in Triple Sec is the same as the subject of this article. I can't find any US regulations, FDA or otherwise, that define either. I would consider Orange Curaçao to be a type of triple sec that's been colored orange. Trader Vic, who would have to be considered the ultimate authority on the mai-tai, specified Holland DeKuyper (later Bols) Orange Curaçao. Rees11 (talk) 16:53, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

So, wait, do you mean that ALL Curaçao (orange, blue, or otherwise) is included in the statement on the Triple Sec article? If that's the case, shouldn't the sentence just read "A form known as "Curaçao" is made from oranges from that Caribbean island."? And also, shouldn't this article say somewhere in the opening paragraph that Curaçao is a type of Triple Sec? As it is, the only reference to Triple Sec is a single link in the "See Also" section, which could mean anything. (And yes, I'm aware of the spelling, but as there isn't a ç key on my keyboard, I find it's generally acceptable to leave off the accents - at least on talk pages.) Lurlock (talk) 20:24, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Probably, but I haven't found any good sources for any of this, and wouldn't want to put my own unresearched opinion in as fact. I'll check my extensive library this weekend to see what I can find. I did take a glance at Regan and also at DeGroff, and it looks like Curaçao is Dutch and triple sec is French. Rees11 (talk) 22:09, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Last night I made myself a mai-tai (St. James Ambre, Appleton 12-year, DeKuyper orange curaçao, Teisseire orgeat from France, fresh limes) and checked my extensive cocktail library. Here's what the experts say.

Wondrich: Curaçao is an orange flavored liqueur. "Early versions were based on young brandies or rums, rather than the neutral spirits used today. For me, the best substitute is therefore the cognac-based Grand Marnier, which was originally sold as Curaçao Marnier."

DeGroff: Curaçao is "a liqueur first made by the Bols distillery in Holland from small bitter Curaçao oranges; now made in many countries, it comes in white, orange, and blue—the color being the only difference." Grand Marnier is "the mother of all curaçao... a blend of curaçao and Cognac." Triple sec is "a liqueur made from curaçao oranges, first in France but now produced in many countries."

Regan: Recommends Cointreau or Van Gogh triple sec but does not include any history or description.

Felton: nothing

Coulombe: nothing

Curtis: loaned my copy out, can't remember who has it, but I don't think he talks about it.

Berry: "No difference between curaçao and blue curaçao except their color; both are made from dried orange peels, port wine and spices... Cointreau and Grand Marnier are more delicate, refined liqueurs than triple sec, but all three are orange-based."

Trader Vic: Nothing specific, but he obviously distinguishes between triple sec and curaçao. He seems to regard triple sec as being generic, but recommends specific brands of curaçao, usually DeKuyper or Nuyens. Some of his cocktails call for Cointreau.

I'm not sure this helps but there it is. Rees11 (talk) 12:35, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

It almost sounds like more of a branding issue than anything else. Sort of like how officially, you can't call something "champagne" unless it comes from the Champagne region of France, but plenty of wineries do it anyhow because that's only enforced in France. Given how popular these beverages have become, I'd be very surprised if all curaçao in the world is literally made from oranges grown on one small Caribbean island. I doubt that they can grow enough of them there to meet worldwide demand. The question seems to be is if there's really much difference between their oranges and the oranges grown on other nearby islands, or for that matter, oranges of the same breed that are grown elsewhere. Or if there's any difference in the production other than the coloring. Would a blue mai-tai taste the same? Or one made with triple sec instead? I mean, other than the inevitable small difference in flavor from one brand and the next, but that's true of pretty much everything. Anyhow, you're obviously better informed in this respect than I am, so I'll let you (or somebody else with more historical knowledge) be the judge on this. Lurlock (talk) 13:36, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I think you're right, and without some central authority to legally define these terms, pretty much anyone can market a "curaçao" or a "triple sec" and put whatever they want in it. I think even the experts are confused, as DeGroff says curaçao was originally made by Bols in Holland, but everyone else says (and I believe) that it was first made by Senior on the island of Curaçao.

I tried to find some 19th century sources but if anyone wrote about curaçao or triple sec back then I can't find it. Unfortunately, without some good sources I don't feel confident making any changes in the Wikipedia articles, but maybe someone will come along later and follow up.

Just to throw in a little original research, my wife and I did a blind taste test a while back. Curaçao is more bitter than triple sec. Triple sec by itself is not very good because it's too sweet. But Curaçao, triple sec, and Cointreau are all pretty close in taste. Rees11 (talk) 14:02, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Brand List

The Triple Sec article lists brands. SHouldn't there be a list of brands of Curacao?72.94.197.60 (talk) 00:13, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

19th Century Sources

As suggested above, much of the confusion around this stems from branding and marketing. Curaçao (whether clear, orange-colored, or blue), triple sec, Grand Marnier and Cointreau are all just orange-flavored liqueurs and essentially interchangeable, with the latter two simply being different brands with different recipes.

"Curaçao" and "Triple Sec" are terms that have been in use for an orange flavored liqueur since at least as early as 1829, five years prior to the Combier claim, as shown by The Encyclopedia Americana, Volume 30, 1829, where the index gives:
"Triple sec (liqueur) 17-560,

Curaçao 8-328"

The island of Curaçao was (and is) under Dutch rule, hence the export of the orange peels to Holland for the making of Curaçao orange liqueur. Since Bols has been in operation since 1575, it's reasonable to assume that they made curaçao fairly early on and considerably prior to the French. Note that it was Holland that was importing the oranges from their colony on Curaçao, so if the liqueur was being made in France, the French were getting the oranges from the Dutch.

The confusion between triple sec and curaçao comes from the fact that we have, over time, adopted the shortened term "triple sec" as the full name for this liqueur, when it is really just one style of curaçao. Originally, one would have distinguished between "Curaçao doux" "Curaçao sec" and "Curaçao triple sec", that is: sweet Curaçao, dry Curaçao, and triple dry Curaçao.

In 1855, Traité des liqueurs, et de la distillation des alcools, Pierre Duplais writes on page 425:
Curaçao de Hollande. - On nomme ainsi les zestes ou écorces d'un fruit d'une espèce particulière d'oranger bigaradier croissant dans l'île de Curaçao, l'une des Antilles, et qui tombe de l'arbre avant sa maturité. Ses écorces sèches sont douées d'une forte odeur aromatique très-agréable, elles doivent être peu épaisses et d'une couleur vert bronzé. Les véritables écorces de curaçao de Hollande sont fort difficiles à trouver dans le commerce : on leur substitue souvent celles de curaçao carton, dont la valeur vénale est quatre fois moindre.

Translated:
Dutch Curaçao. - The zest or peel of the fruit of a particular species of sour orange growing on the island of Curaçao in the Antilles, and which falls from the tree before its maturity. It's dry rind is endowed with a strong and very pleasant aroma; they must be thin and a bronze-green color. The genuine curaçao peel from Holland is very difficult to find in trade: they are often replaced with substitutes whose market value is four times less.

Other early references:

1889 Chambers's encyclopaedia: a dictionary of universal knowledge - Page 619
Curaçoa is a well known and esteemed liqueur usually made in Holland with the dried peel of the Curaçao orange, the peel being macerated with water and then distilled with spirit and water. The result is sweetened with sugar and a little Jamaica rum is often added. A palatable imitation can be made from the fresh peel of bitter oranges and whisky.

An introduction to practical pharmacy, Blanchard & Lea, 1859 Page 150
Curaçao Cordial (Imitation)
Take of Curaçao bark (bitter orange) [...]
Peel of sweet oranges [...]
Cloves, Canella [...]
Brandy [...]
Neutral sweet spirits [...]
Distilled orange flower water [...]
Sugar [...]

Prepare a tincture by percolation with the aromatics brandy and sweet spirits then add the distilled orange flower water and the sugar. The genuine Curaçao cordial is imported from Rotterdam and is highly esteemed. This recipe furnished me by LM Emanuel of Philadelphia forms a good imitation of it. Its chief use in medicine is as a remedy for nausea especially when a symptom of pregnancy.

1897 New American supplement to the latest edition of the Encyclopædia,- Page 966
CURAÇAO ORANGES, small oranges which have fallen from the tree long before maturity. They have properties similar to those of orange peel but are more bitter and acrid. A sweet liquor known as curacao is made by dissolving the dried orange peel in alcohol with sirup and spices added, distilling the solution and about one per cent of Jamaica rum. The center of manufacture is Amsterdam and the curacao liqueur is esteemed highly.

---

I have no interest in editing the Wikipedia pages for these topics, but I hope this sheds some light for those who do.

Gwydion Stone (talk) 18:03, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

High-end Curaçaos like Grand Marnier???

Unless curaçao is an umbrella or generic term for bitter orange-flavored liqueurs, this is incorrect. Shouldn't it be more like, "High-end bitter orange-flavored liqueurs, like Grand Marnier..." I've never seen anything in cookbooks are bartenders manuals to indicate that this is correct.

But, if curaçao is a generic/umbrella, then you need to make a statement to that effect, and bolster it with an outside source, to avoid confusion. However, I would think that only those liqueurs made on Curaçao by the parent company would be called Curaçao, upper case. The company website states that: "...N.V. Senior & Co. which company produces the one and only GENUINE "Curacao of Curacao" liqueur."Zlama (talk) 07:00, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Fresh bottle image would be better

Re: File:Blue_Curaçao_Bottle.jpg, I never saw a 3/4 already consumed bottle of anything used in an article. Jidanni (talk) 01:22, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, is the text "A bottle of Blue Curaçao" even true when the bottle is mostly consumed? "A Blue Curaçao bottle" is, but is "A bottle of Blue Curaçao" when there isn't a bottle of it? 88.192.22.239 (talk) 09:18, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Senior family

I'm going to remove the bit about the Senior family. This is sourced to Benjamin, but the Senior family is never mentioned in that book. The only mention of Curaçao liqueur is on page 47, and all it says is that the Laraha was brought to Curaçao by the Spanish in 1527 and that most orange liqueur is now made "synthetically off the island." Kendall-K1 (talk) 21:05, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

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Link goes to a porn site

In the References section, this line: "Webpage about Curacao Liqueur and Triple secs". Archived from the original on May 29, 2013. Retrieved 2012-01-01., the link for the original now leads to a pornography website. I am new and I am not sure how to correct this information. For all I know, I am using the Talk page wrong as well. Mrs Lermbot (talk) 20:52, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

If you click on the main link, you'll go to the archived version. You have to click on "original" to get the imposter. We don't usually remove links just because they no longer work; see Wikipedia:Link rot. So I'm not sure there is anything that needs to be done about this. Kendall-K1 (talk) 21:09, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

distillation?

I do not think that what is described in "production" is distillation. It is rather maceration or some such thing - the alcohol is distilled previously. --2607:FEA8:D5DF:1AF0:0:0:0:F6CC (talk) 03:45, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

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