Talk:Curare

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Doctors decided to use curare as an anaesthetic for infants. It was completely successful. It had low mortality and few side effects. It went into widespread use. One day a doctor decided to test curare on himself for an operation since it was so successful with infants. He felt every twitch of the surgeon's knife exquisitely, but could not move or shout out his pain. He could not so much as blink his eyes. Curare was not an anaesthetic after all, just a muscle paralyser. Only then was the use of curare as an anaesthetic for infants dropped.

This sounds like a shivery legend that was invented; I have found no references for it. Feel free to add it back if some references (and, for example, the name of the doctor) are found.

Although indeed phrased as a story and certainly oversimplified, this is more than just a legend. Here is an example of a popular article on infant pain that has a section on the use of curare on infants. And here is the first page of an 1946 article "Experience With Curare in Anesthesia" by V. Apgar, M.D. (Annals of Surgery, 1946, Vol. 124, pp. 161-166; full article is available for subscribers only) that has the story of a surgeon. The scan is barely legible, but here is the relevant passage:

It is exceedingly difficult to be certain of the state of unconsciousness when the action of all skeletal muscles has been depressed and the patient's trachea has been intubated as well. This fact has been made vivid to us by the observation of a patient, himself a surgeon, undergoing a lobectomy for bronchiestasis. Anesthesia was induced with pentothal and curare, an endotracheal tube was inserted and the operation begun, with pentothal and curare added at intervals. Objectively, the anesthesia was highly successful, but the patient remembers vividly every detail of the last half of the operation, and was unable to communicate his discomfort to the anesthetist.

For now I am not putting this matter back to the article. Someone with access to on-line medical journals would be in a better position to do it in a proper manner. 132.68.75.40 (talk) 14:29, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The doctor who submitted to an experiment was Dr Scott M. Smith, as reported in the paper "The Lack of Cerebral Effects of d-Tubocurarine", Anesthesiology, 1947. He wasn't operated on, but underwent a 4 hour test where almost complete paralysis was induced, with no anaesthetic, and artificial respiration was needed. He reported afterwards on how his senses were effected. http://journals.lww.com/anesthesiology/Citation/1947/01000/THE_LACK_OF_CEREBRAL_EFFECTS_OF_d_TOBOCURARINE.1.aspx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.106.43.199 (talk) 22:26, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

If he was paralysed he still had a pulse, why didn't they see it increasing while they were cutting? If the story is true then this surgeon is an idiot. I thought surgeons were supposed to be smart? If I were him I would've had a pinprick while under the drug and waited to say if I felt it. Even then you couldn't be sure if it didn't just prevent short term memories from sticking, meaning you felt everything but by the time you could move you had forgotten. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:09, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't curare come from dart frogs (Dendrobatidae)?

Actually, batrachotoxin is the toxic chemical compound from poison dart frogs. --Ed (Edgar181) 21:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Curare as a KGB weapon?

I have heard that the KGB employed curare as a toxic agent in much the same way they used ricin. I've read this from numerous sources but unfortunately it was long ago and I am currently unable to cite the sources. Does anyone know anything about this? --Madelle 12:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

The origin of the word curare

One of the recent additions says that: "Curo, curare, curavi, curatus" is a first conjugation verb in Latin that means "to take care of" or "look after". The English word "care" comes from it.

However, from what I read, the word comes from the native name that was used by the Indians. Even the entry for tubocurarine mentiones it, "ourare". It seems to me that the similarity with the Latin verb is only coincidental (after all, curare was not used to cure or take care of. What do you think? Janek78 05:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Not that i disagree with your analysis, Janek, but curare(-like) agents have been and in some places still are used as treatment in situations where uncontrolled muscle spasms are likely to harm patients, such as with tetanus, [black widow]] spider envenomations &c.Tuckerekcut 02:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

But I know, notice the past tense, I was referring to the original use. As far as I know the name comes from the natives (therefore latin is a very unlikely source) and even if they spoke latin, I am not sure they used it therapeutically (although they might have). Anyone has a better knowledge of curare history? Janek78 15:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The natives in South America called the poison like "Ourare". --FK1954 (talk) 19:10, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Curare and its usage in relief of pain in Rhumatic Arthritis

I am interested in knowing if these plants ( curare... strychnos toxifera ) or its derivatives are used for getting relief from joint pains arising out of Rhumatic arthritis either for intake or external application by way of balm or liniment (oil)....pl give relevant info to email id paraskar_business@yahoo.com

Curare does NOT have any analgesic effect. --FK1954 (talk) 19:11, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

(Non)Toxicity upon oral intake and different sorts of curare

I think that it should be emphasized, that curare (or its active components) are active (toxic, paralytic, muscle relaxing) only upon parenteral application (that is, either an injection or a wound contamination via poisoned arrow-tip). Its quite important for more reasons: first, curares have/are beeing used not only as a combat weapon poison, but also (and mainly) as prey hunting poison. The natives in Orinoco area are using blowdarts poisoned with curare to paralyze animals whose flesh is eaten by them thereafter. Logically, it is absolutely necessary that the poison is highly effective upon direct introduction in the blood stream, but innoxious when (flesh poisoned by it) is eaten. Secondly, I encountered many times the misinformation (also in Wikipedia), that curare is reffered to as a sort of "ultimative poison", beeing prone to all kinds of poisoning (i.e. oral intoxication). Apart this, there is no mention in the article, that actually three main sorts of curare were/are beeing used by the native tribes in South America: tubocurare (main active ingredient beeing (+)-tubocurarine), calebas curare (main active toxins alloferine and toxiferine) and pot curare (main toxins beeing protocurarine, protocurine, and protocuridine). I edit the article.--84.163.86.13 01:51, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Antidote

Out of shear curiosity... is there an antidote to curare? If so, is it worth adding? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Theshowmecanuck (talk • contribs) 09:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

Generally, the action of non-depolarising curaremimetic muscle relaxants/paralysants (curare toxins are of this pharmacological/toxicological class), can be attenuated or counteracted, in some extent, by administration of reversible acetylchloinesteraze inhibitors, such as neostigmine, pyridostigmine and edrophonium. But, in case of curare poisoning, assisted/controlled ventilation by a lung machine is crucial for the period of muscle paralysis, since the cause of death by curare intoxication is paralysis of respiratory muscles. Eventually, the patient is also carfuly to sedate (e.g. by small carefuly administred midazolam or similar benzodiazepine in infusion), to ease the anxiety and very unpleasant experience of total paralysis during controlled ventilation.--84.163.110.249 00:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Lethality to humans

Is contact with human skin lethal [in low dose]? It's the stuff of spy movies, where for example curare is put on a doorknob and proves fatal to the target. Asked by Vid2vid 17:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Some of the alcaloids could be lethal upon skin contact; e.g., when dissolved in a solvent such as dimethyl sulfoxide, some of the alcaloids may be skin resorptive enough to cause an (fatal) intoxication. Lethal doses of the most potent curare alcaloids (toxiferine and similar) are very low (less than a milligram substance for a person). Another possibility would be resorption via (even tiny) wounds on the skin. Generally, there are other potent poisons that are well skin-resorptive.--Spiperon 11:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Little Known?

It did not seem to be nearly as well known in the western world before WWI as it is now. Richard Marsh had one of his Judith Lee stories c.1912 titled simply ‘Curare’, supposing hardly anyone knew what that meant. The was a rash of detective stories after that about the mysterious. ‘Arrow poison of the South American Indians’, so it became a cliche of detective fiction by the 1930’s. When did the drug become known to the public? 31.94.74.77 (talk) 23:32, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Pronounciation

Curare - kew rahr ee

Not sure what the IPA pronounciation is, but most people can't read IPA anyway (including myself). Perhaps this simple pronounciation key should be included in the article. Fuzzform (talk) 04:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

i have to do a book report for school does anyone know a good website —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.30.183 (talk) 17:13, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

 Implemented Added pronunciation respelling using the "respell" tag for both variants. — Molly-in-md (talk) 16:39, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Carried by Gary Powers

The History section states in the last line that Gary Powers carried a curare-impregnated needle hidden in a silver dollar to commit suicide in the event he was captured. However, the 1960 U-2 incident article claims the needle contained saxitoxin. The article for saxitoxin itself also says this. I do not know which is correct, but I do know curare and saxitoxin are very different substances. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.94.56.150 (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Dying by curare is a VERY cruel way to die. You can't breathe though you feel you MUST. I can't imagine that an American hero was to die this way. --FK1954 (talk) 19:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

History of curare as an anaesthetic

The article states that attempts to use curare as an anaesthetic date to 1912, yet the UK's Cruelty to Animals Act 1876 includes the provision:

The substance known as urari or curare shall not for the purposes of this Act be deemed to be an anaesthetic.

This suggests that the potential of curare as an anaesthetic had been explored long before 1912. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.198.174 (talk) 22:31, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

at least dozens of plants in many genera and several families contain curare

It seems incredible that only two plants are listed, without even a note that there MAY be others? A cursory search indicates about 10 genera and many plants in the Menispermaceae family alone contain curare alkaloids. Since "curare" isn't a single substance, and only some of the potentially dozens of related alkaloids in two different classifications may constitute the active component of curare preparations, there are probably hundreds of species that might make the list as sources. I can find reasonable citations of documented uses of about a dozen plant species used for preparation of arrow poison, or subsequently for medicinal research. I've greatly expanded the section to list at least some of the plants.Sbalfour (talk) 19:28, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

another section to remove

This is bizarre and loosely written, like the above removed section. I have not removed it because I have not logged in but go for it, or fix it with sources??

In the Amazon there is such a bounty of plants so rich in alkaloids that an effective curare can be made by boiling down several kilos of any combination of 20 different species of jungle leaves. Once it becomes a thick syrupy tar it will most likely be able to bring down anything from a monkey to a man.

Adjuvants

It is known that the final preparation is often more potent than the concentrated principal active ingredient. Various irritating herbs, stinging insects, poisonous worms, and various parts of amphibians and reptiles are added to the preparation. Some of these accelerate the onset of action or increase the toxicity; others prevent the wound from healing or blood from coagulating.

130.242.101.110 (talk) 23:53, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

> Six years and no source? Sounds like it's about time to delete this section... Arthurwolf~enwiki (talk) 15:52, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

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The Alkaloids reference

The lead section contains a quotation purporting to come from "The Alkaloids: Pharmacology" volume 5, in 1995, edited by Manske. But that volume came out in 1965, and the series was named "Chemistry and Physiology" (it changed to "Chemistry and Pharmacology" when Arnold Brossi took over as editor with volume 21 in 1983). The volumes published in 1995 were 46 and 47; Manske hadn't been editor for 12 years at that point. Source: series website (Elsevier). Hairy Dude (talk) 00:58, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Geography

The intro notes that it was used by indigenous peoples in Central America and South America but only discusses South America. Barring further evidence or citations Central America should be removed from the intro . 2601:845:C100:7560:8804:441E:F7B4:F12F (talk) 00:59, 8 June 2023 (UTC)