Talk:Current tennis rankings

These charts go against Wikipedia MOS

We cannot only have color as the only identifying descriptor. You need to put symbols in the "qualified" and "qualified but withdrew" boxes and then put those symbols next to the players' names. Or perhaps bold the players who qualified and put that in the footnote. But it can't only be color. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:57, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I bolded the qualified players and teams and updated the footnotes/legends. This should meet WP:MOS guidelines now. Qwerty284651 (talk) 01:12, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

I know this is old news by know, but what symbols would you use for this particular case? Qwerty284651 (talk) 16:36, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

RUS/BLR flagicons

@Xc4TNS:, stop adding BLR and RUS flagicons next to Belarus and Russian players. I know they don't affect the rankings, obviously, they're just country flags, but as ATP/WTA have the flags omitted/blank, so should we on Wikipedia. So, please abide by that. Qwerty284651 (talk) 10:07, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

We use the icons in the ranking tables as almost all other sources do. The WTA and ATP have removed the icons for all players that are Russian... even 10 year old records because their software is defective. They are not a reliable source for ranking flags. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:30, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

I stand corrected in regards to the flagicons. I was counting ATP and WTA as the most reliable sources, but I guess I was wrong. Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:06, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Let's not say wrong, but this was discussed in a few places that the WTA and ATP software is an issue on this one item. They issued their stance in the press and it only applied to the fact that tournaments would not recognize Russian/Belarus players, and that the Russian/Belarus teams would not be able to compete in national team events. Nothing has ever been said about rankings to my knowledge. So the ITF/ATP/WTA went through every current player in the registry and removed their flags, not realizing that their flags would also be removed from tournaments from 2010 or 2015. You look at ITF Davis Cup from 2017 and the Russian player Rublev has no flag icon where other nations do. We aren't going to remove the flag icons from 2017 just because they have at the ATP/ITF/WTA... we know the software they are using has limitations in this issue. They removed all icons for these players regardless of time period or reason. The same has happened for rankings on those sites. Look at WTA rankings from 2021, before the Russian invasion. Sabalanka has no icon from 2021 even though we know for a fact she should have one. That's a software issue or bad programing. Because of that the ITF/WTA/ATP reliability on this one issue is suspect and we need to look elsewhere. Right now, no player from Russia or Belarus can play a tournament under their country's flag. That is in print from official announcements, and we follow it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:54, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

From on I am not going to interfere with the BLR/RUS flags, whether they should stay up or not. I didn't quite understand what you tried to say and I am not try either. I will leave it at that. Qwerty284651 (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

You said you are not gonna interfere with the flags. Looks like you changed your mind, 10 months later. Please stop undoing changes and putting back the BLR/RUS flags on the Current Tennis Rankings Wikipedia page. If you are semi-retired, and no longer active in Wikipedia, whatever that means why are you making changes contrary to what you stated earlier in the year?! Sashona (talk) 19:49, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click) Can you point me to the discussion in a “few places” about the ATP and WTA software being an issue you are taking about?! Or is this the only discussion. Sashona (talk) 21:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

There are no flags on the WTA and the ATP rankings website page, so we don't use it there, period 2A01:CB14:11BC:CF00:68B5:5AE7:6C47:85ED (talk) 11:51, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Because of software issues on their site. There are no official announcements from the WTA or ATP about rankings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:27, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Refrain from removing the Russian and Belarus or might end up not being able to edit any longer. Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:58, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Mind your business, nobody ask you something 2A01:CB14:11BC:CF00:68B5:5AE7:6C47:85ED (talk) 10:12, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Flagicons of Russian and Belarusian tennis players

After the discussion was brought to the project's talk page for a broader feedback, consensus was reached for the flag icons of Belarus and Russian players to be removed from the rankings until the tennis governing bodies re-add the flags on their websites. Qwerty284651 (talk) 01:16, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Why do the rankings not respect the source (ITF, WTA and Grand Slam decision) and have the flagicons of Russian and Belarusian tennis players as the only ones in tennis articles? All other article types respect the source and do not include flags: tables of players, draws, circuits, and list of number 1 ranked tennis players. Kacir 06:00, 8 November 2023 (UTC) See similar discussion above: #RUS/BLR flagicons. Qwerty284651 (talk) 12:39, 12 November 2023 (UTC) Thank you for the link. The discussion makes the erroneous assumption that the absence of flags is caused by faulty WTA software. Of course, this is not true and such statement contradicts the statement of the tennis organizations. RUS/BLR flagicons in rankings from March 2022 are not shown on purpose. And the side effect is the flags' non-displaying even in the players' Activity section before this date. Kacir 18:15, 17 November 2023 (UTC) It is not erroneous in the least. And the software might not be faulty but simply limited. The organizations said nothing about rankings.... ZIP. Only for tournaments. We have no concrete proof of any wording concerning rankings. And the fact the software is butchered as far as activity before March 1, 2022, shows it can't be trusted to be correct for rankings after March 1 2022. To assume it includes the rankings with no sourced statements would be knocking against WP:SYNTH. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:10, 17 November 2023 (UTC) @Sashona:, refer to this discussion to resolve any issues regarding the flags. Best, Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:00, 17 November 2023 (UTC) Why are we including RUS and BLR flags on the Current tennis rankings page, the official ATP and WTA rankings list websites do not include flags, see Aryna Sabalenka on this list for example:https://www.wtatennis.com/rankings/singles Sashona (talk) 23:02, 17 November 2023 (UTC) Because it looks like the ATP and WTA sites have software limitations as explained many times. There actual press conferences they say will not be included in tournaments after March 1 2022. That's it. So we can certainly go with that since we have multiple sources. What we would expect on their websites would be elimination of flags from that time forward. Instead what they have is elimination of flags from Russian and Belarus players from any point in history, Azarenka has her flags removed from tournament wins in 2013. That is dead wrong and an error. What the WTA and ATP seems to have done is simply remove the flags entirely. That includes the rankings. We don't know if that's what they ruled on or not or simply software limitations. If we follow their websites exactly we need to remove the Russian flags for the last 15 years off of Wikipedia... but we won't do that because we know it's wrong. Same with the rankings. We need to find a source that specifically says no flags in rankings to remove them from our charts. Otherwise we are speculating and using improper synthesis. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:22, 18 November 2023 (UTC) The ATP and WTA ranking lists are not including the flags because the Russian and Belarusian players are not competing under any flag, but allowed to play tournaments as neutral athletes. Not because of software limitation, what a nonsense explanation. We don’t have to remove them for the past 15 years, only in the current 2023 rankings and in 2022. Our source is the decision made by the ATP and WTA back on 1 March 2022 governing bodies that the Russian and Belarusian players do not compete under a flag because of the Ukrainian Invasion: 1) https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/badminton-swimming-federations-ban-athletes-russia-belarus-2022-03-01/ 2) https://www.wtatennis.com/news/2510418/joint-statement-by-the-international-governing-bodies-of-tennis 2) https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2022/03/01/russian-and-belarusian-tennis-players-can-still-compete-but-not-under-their-flags/ Sashona (talk) 00:33, 18 November 2023 (UTC) You aren't reading what I wrote, and I can't keep writing the same thing that you don't understand. I don't know how else to explain it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:49, 18 November 2023 (UTC) I understood what you saying, but the Russians and Belariusan players are not excluded from tournaments as you said, they ARE included on the ATP and WTA level tournaments but they compete as NEUTRALS , therefore under NO FLAG. What is it that I need to understand. Therefore the flags anywhere in Wikipedia after March 2022, 2023 and going forward in front of the players should be taken out including in the WTA and ATP Current tennis rankings page. Here is the source of this decision again : https://www.wtatennis.com/news/2510418/joint-statement-by-the-international-governing-bodies-of-tennis “At this time, players from Russia and Belarus will continue to be allowed to compete in international tennis events on Tour and at the Grand Slams. However, they will not compete under the name or flag of Russia or Belarus until further notice.”Thank you. Sashona (talk) 00:53, 18 November 2023 (UTC) Yes, exactly. If Russian and Belarusian tennis players are not allowed to compete under the name or flag of Russia or Belarus, then they can't have flags in the rankings, e.g. WTA Singles Rankings (PDF) as of 13/11/2023 published by the governing body WTA. Kacir 01:05, 18 November 2023 (UTC) And that would be a conclusion not supported by sources and would be improper synthesis. Per the ATP/WTA own mouths, players don't get flags in competitions from March 2022. Per their website they don't get flags in events prior to 2022 or in rankings also. That's wrong, and we can't piecemeal what's wrong and say... well, we'll exclude them from rankings but use them in prior years. Wikipedia can't do that. You really want to remove flags from 2013 because the WTA website says to do it? Sometimes their websites have software issues. Luckily we have many other news sources that we can use to fix it. And head over to the WTA rankings website and punch in 24 November 2014. No flags for Sharapova, Makarova, Azarenka, and many others. They simply removed all Russian/Belarus flags from everything at every time period. The site is unreliable for flags in this situation. We can only go by the press releases which I haven't seen mention rankings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:30, 18 November 2023 (UTC) The sources are clear, a decision was made by the ATP and WTA Tennis GOVERNING bodies to NOT have flags in the bios, profiles (which are not maintained by year by the way) for those players including on their websites. When they removed them there, they came out in the rankings list too for all years, nothing strange about it. Look even at the Tennis channel website at https://www.tennis.com/scores/scores_index, or a live rankings site like https://live-tennis.eu/en/atp-live-ranking no flags also. Why is this hostility and bringing up issues that are NON existent. No one is asking to remove Russian and Belarusian flags from 2013. Only time the flags are blank is after 1 March 2022 and all Wikipedia contributors have made those changes ALREADY. You want to go and change those back too to have a flag?! You are inciting conversation for nothing. It is NOT a software issue, they removed the flags after a decision was made. If you think it an issue, send feedback on the ATP and WTA sites. We know that before the war, they were competing under a Russian or Belarusian flags, but they are not presently. A and by the way Sharapova retired in 2020, so not sure why she is even mentioned in this conversation.Sashona (talk) 02:19, 18 November 2023 (UTC) I could link to dozens of sites that have the flags if you'd like. I'm not hostile in the least. We have long kept the flags at the rankings but not the tournaments. If we follow the WTA/ATP websites as you want then we'd need to remove the flags from 2013 on all our articles. It seems you only want to follow some of what they did because it's what you want. The press reports say nothing of rankings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:04, 18 November 2023 (UTC) The press did report that the flags have been removed, I already gave you the article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2022/03/01/russian-and-belarusian-tennis-players-can-still-compete-but-not-under-their-flags/ and here is another one : https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/ATP_Tennis/110312/daniil-medvedev-reacts-to-atp-removing-russia-flag-by-his-name-/ (ironically even the top Russian male player agree but you don’t). What are you talking about removing flags from 2013?! Why would you want to do that?! Where does it say to go remove flags since 2013, and why 2013 but not 2014 or any other year!? We are talking about the removal of the flags only in the current 2023 WTA and ATP list of rankings on the Current tennis rankings Wikipedia page. The rest of the flag changes have already been done as you mentioned in list of tournaments Won/Lost in the players individual pages. Sashona (talk) 03:45, 18 November 2023 (UTC) Those press reports say nothing about rankings. The WTA and ATP website says to remove all these players flags from everything for the last 20 years. Are we going to do that per the WTA and ATP? Even from Sharapova as the WTA does? You seem to want to follow that site blindly so we should start removing all the flags they do. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:26, 18 November 2023 (UTC) I restored the BLR and RUS flags. I agree with Fyunck here. The WTA albeit a good source isn't always the most reliable. It wiped the Russian and Belarus flags from all players, including those who stopped playing a long time ago. Don't follow wtatennis.com as the only WTA source. It has its flaws, it also removed other records from players' career stats from before 2009, so don't take it for granted as this perfect source of information. Just leave the flags as they are. Stop removing them. Okay? Qwerty284651 (talk) 11:49, 18 November 2023 (UTC) Please stop undoing my changes, this is a second time you undid my changes, if you continue you might not be able to edit anymore according to the Wikipedia rules. “The governing bodies ATP (for men) and WTA (for women) decision made on 1 March 2022 states that from that date forward, “players from Russia and Belarus will continue to be allowed to compete in international tennis events on Tour and at the Grand Slams. However, they will not compete under the name or flag of Russia or Belarus until further notice.” Source : https://www.wtatennis.com/news/2510418/joint-statement-by-the-international-governing-bodies-of-tennis (source cited from, multiple times). It is extremely clear why the official ATPtour.com and WTAtennis.com current rankings shows NO flags next to their names. Contributor Kacir agreed with me as well. Sashona (talk) 03:35, 19 November 2023 (UTC) It's not at all clear since they removed all flags from Russian/Belarus players for all time. There's no way to tell what they mean. Players like 20 years retired Yevgeny Kafelnikov has had his flag removed. They just did a blanket removal of all things Russian and Belarus no matter when and no matter why. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:33, 19 November 2023 (UTC) No one is asking to remove 20 years, we are taking about having NO flags, in front of names for ACTIVE Russian and Belarusian players, starting 1 March 2022 after the Russian invasion in Ukraine. Kafelnikov and Sharapova are not an active players, they are retired. Sashona (talk) 04:09, 19 November 2023 (UTC) If you are basing your ranking removal on the ATP/WTA website software, then we must also do the same for all Russian/Belarus players for all-time. It's what the WTA/ATP says so they must be correct. We don't get to chose what we use and what we don't use if we go strictly by the WTA/ATP website. If they are the lay of the land we use their records which tell us per their source to remove all the nationalities from Russian and Belarus players, no matter the time period. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:49, 19 November 2023 (UTC) You have not kept the BLR/RUS flags for long in the rankings articles, as this issue with the flags and keeping them, which is incorrect, in the Current Tennis Rankings page is going on for months now, as I can see on this talk discussion. Sashona (talk) 20:50, 19 November 2023 (UTC) Thank you Kacir, I agree it is clear why there is no Russian and Belarusian flags next to the names in the rankings. Sashona (talk) 03:36, 19 November 2023 (UTC) I have the same opinion, because the authoritative sources – ATP and WTA organizations that publish the rankings, do not mention either flags or countries. There is no credible source for disrespecting this approach, the decision taken in March 2022, just in the rankings; ATP 1 + ATP 2, WTA 1 + WTA 2. Kacir 07:58, 19 November 2023 (UTC) Most press reports simply link to the ATP or WTA site, so that doesn't help. Some like the New York Times or Foxsports or Sportstar show flags for all. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:59, 19 November 2023 (UTC) As we can see, e.g. the New York Times has flags in the results as well. That's no reason to start putting them in articles. Kacir 09:48, 19 November 2023 (UTC) Nytimes is not a sports specialized source, never used Sportstar as a source. BTW FoxNews also confirms no flags next to names shown on TV (channel 9 in this case) and in Google: https://www.foxsports.com.au/tennis/australian-open/what-country-are-tennis-players-under-white-flag-at-australian-open-2023-from/news-story/03d1300ffdfa664d02e4e40f93308342 We are talking about rankings. Based on the governing bodies decision made on 1 March 2022, all tennis related Sports sites used as sources in Wikipedia, like Live Rankings at https://live-tennis.eu/en/atp-live-ranking or Tennis.com at https://www.tennis.com/players-rankings/, do not show flags in the rankings, same as on the official ATPtour and WTAtennis sites. These are the official sources used on the Current Tennis Rankings Wikipedia page. Olympics.con doesn’t even show the country at https://olympics.com/en/news/women-tennis-wta-singles-world-rankings-complete-list Please stop undoing my changes, this is a second time you undid my changes, if you continue you might not be able to edit anymore according to the Wikipedia rules.Sashona (talk) 19:14, 19 November 2023 (UTC) Multiple editors have been reverting you... you are the one on the cusp of being blocked. And some of my edits have been additions to show it's extremely dubious because of ATP/WTA errors on flags. All we need is to find an official written ATP/WTA source that specifically says that no countries are to be used in Russia/Belarus rankings. It shouldn't be hard to find that specific language if that's what they truly want. They were quite specific about tournaments. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:56, 19 November 2023 (UTC) we already have the sources unless you have a different one. I don’t understand is this a unilateral one person desicion on which sources are legitimate and which not, who is the decision maker here on what should be on a page. At this point I consider I am being harassed. There is nothing dubious about the changes, me and contributor Kasir, the person that started this discussion agreed with me multiple times, we are two people in majority against one. The official sources are clear the governing bodies decision on 1 March 2022, the rankings listed on ATPtour.com and WTatennis.com, but you do not want to accept it. Considering other contributors accept them and the Tennis community, i.e. Tennis Chanel on tennis.com and on TV, live rankings website etc I do not understand what is the issue here. In Google if you type current atp rankings it comes back with NO flags, as well you can type atp finals and all scores for BLR/RUS players have no flags.Sashona (talk) 21:24, 19 November 2023 (UTC) I support Fyunck in regards that the Belarus and Russian flags should not be removed. The WTA website is not the most wta reliable source in all regards. To reiterate they removed the flags for all Russian and Belarus players in the past, even before 2022. That seems like an erroneous system to me. Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:06, 19 November 2023 (UTC) We are discussing current 2023 rankings on the Current tennis rankings Wikipedia page, what does year 2022 or before has to do with it. Sashona (talk) 23:00, 19 November 2023 (UTC) I am confused, if we are in majority that agree that there should be NO BLR/RUS flags (talking also about all other related Tennis articles) , why is it that the only one current tennis rankings page still shows the flags. Kasir doesn’t majority prevail in Wikipedia regarding decisions in what changes should be made or not? Sashona (talk) 22:04, 19 November 2023 (UTC) There is no majority in ruling over the BLR/RUS flags here. It is a draw. Qwerty284651 (talk) 22:11, 19 November 2023 (UTC) In that case we should keep my changes, why are you removing them multiple times without even citing or adding a better source?! Unless you have a more reliable source, please restore my version and refrain in the future from making changes to other contributors that have provided correct sources.Sashona (talk) 22:41, 19 November 2023 (UTC) On a minor sidenote: live-tennis.eu is a reliable source, but not an official one. When reviving this page from draft namespace, I included live-tennis.eu rankings as a secondary source. Atptour.com and wtatennis.com are the primary sources. Trivia: And ATP recently, like a year or 2 ago, added the "live" version of the ATP singles and doubles rankings. I guess they implemented what live-tennis has. Who knows? WTA is yet to add theirs. Live rankings are good for keeping track of no. 1 scenarios or top 10 debuts. But that's a topic for another day. Qwerty284651 (talk) 12:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC) Why don't you supply us with an official source that supports your changes, which are currently incorrect?! live-tennis.eu is another website I pointed to you, which I myself included as a source on the current Tennis rankings page, that shows no BLR/RUS icons. Not sure how many sources you need exactly?! Sashona (talk) 14:27, 20 November 2023 (UTC) No, I said I support this source. Nothing wrong with it. I included both atp/wta and live-tennis.eu sources when rekindling this page. Qwerty284651 (talk) 14:43, 20 November 2023 (UTC) In that case please remove the BLR/RUS flags on the Current Tennis Rankings page as shown on the live-tennis.eu website or provide a better source. Sashona (talk) 15:25, 20 November 2023 (UTC) Discussion continued And consensus takes more than that anyways. It has been shown over and over that the WTA and ATP websites are in error with regards to flags on players. Their time periods are all screwed up and they've made no press release that specifically says no nationality on rankings. On this issue they are unreliable. They've been unreliable on many items such as player records from the 80s backward, and we've had to use other sources to correct it here, so this is nothing new. We use their website as a source unless we show there is some concern about their facts or software. I have told you the concerns but it's like talking to the wind. I've noticed that since March 2022 some sources have resorted to no nationality at all in the listing of rankings. We could temporarily do that here too. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:23, 19 November 2023 (UTC) It is not about an unreliable software at all, plus WTA and ATP websites are new, it is not the 80s when they did not even have a website back then. It is called relational database in IT computer science, they removed the flags from the players profiles which are not year based, so when they link with the rankings tables, which are year based, it comes off for all the years. It only matters for the active players in the current rankings and we are talking in the Current tennis rankings Wikipedia page of 3 male and 4 female in singles and 1 female player in doubles. There is nothing unreliable, unless you designed their database and know more on the limitations, then anyone else. Why don’t you send them feedback if you think their software is unreliable or incorrect and why are you using the two websites ATPtour and WTA Tennis as MAIN sources for the rankings on the Current Tennis Rankings Wikipedia page if you think they are dubious or incorrect. Do you have any other official source!? So what about GOOGLE.com or TENNIS.com list rankings showing NO flags are they wrong too?! What about all TV providers like Tennis Channel showing WHITE flags for Russians and Belarusians as reported by news outlets and supported by other official bodies like Tennis Australia. Quoting from https://www.foxsports.com.au/tennis/australian-open/what-country-are-tennis-players-under-white-flag-at-australian-open-2023-from/news-story/03d1300ffdfa664d02e4e40f93308342 : Tennis Australia noted that Russian and Belarusian players will need to compete as neutral players in Melbourne. "Players from Russia and Belarus are only able to compete in international tennis events as individuals – and without flags or country recognition – which will be the case for Australian Open 2023," it said. Sashona (talk) 22:53, 19 November 2023 (UTC) I give up trying to explain this to you. You keep saying the same wrong stuff over and over. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:02, 20 November 2023 (UTC) Really, quite dismissive and insulting comments, I can say the same about you, you have no idea what you are talking about and making completely false statements, therefore you should not be making decisions in Wikipedia (for which I am not sure who gave you the authority) on what is right or wrong. Unless you are a software engineer you should not comment on a reliability or incorrectness of a software, and use the software as excuse to not agree on obvious changes that need to be made (for which you were given plenty of alternate sources) on the Current Tennis rankings Wikipedia page which in its current version is obviously wrong. Please provide an alternate and reliable source that states we should have the BLR/RUS flags displayed or restore my changes. Sashona (talk) 01:21, 20 November 2023 (UTC) Already explained multiple times. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC) @Sashona, nobody is being dismissive or insulting. And nobody has authority over here on Wikipedia. This isn't about claiming ownership over edits. Once you post something on Wikipedia, it's bound to be changed by others. If you stopped and looked at the big picture, you'd see that the wtatennis.com is erroneous and has incorrect and incomplete player stats data every time the website goes through a major design/layout overhaul/update. Nothing new for WTA or ATP, for that matter. One doesn't have to be a rocket science to figure that one out. It's been like this for a while now. This is why it's always good to seek additional resources to double check if stats, flags, what-have-you, match up. There will always be discrepancies between sources. These are my two cents. I guess, Fyunck and I cannot get through to you. We tried. Qwerty284651 (talk) 11:38, 20 November 2023 (UTC) BTW you or Funck have still NOT provided an alternate source that supports the current changes made by you on the Current Tennis Rankings page which are not correct. There is no problem, you are making up one, you just don't want to make the obvious changes that were made on all other related articles in Wikipedia. Kasir pointed those out to you. Kasir and myself tried too but in vain. I guess there is a reason people don't trust what they see in Wikipedia because of contributors like yourself.Sashona (talk) 14:16, 20 November 2023 (UTC) Don't take things personal. It's just one Wikipedia article, one of many. Qwerty284651 (talk) 14:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC) That is right, all other tennis related articles are correct but one because someone decided to be not flexible with making changes. I think you are taking it personal more then me. Use your head, people. Ignorance is bliss, I rest my case. Wikipedia is full of unproductive contributors like Funck and you.Sashona (talk) 15:12, 20 November 2023 (UTC) Fair warning, another one of these posts and you will get reported to administration for personal attacks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC) Let's not fight over some flags. It's not worth the hussle. As for unproductive... you should check the Project's talk page and its archives and how many discussions have taken place over the past 2 years. I've contributed my part to the best of my abilities and have come to agreements with discussion on so many topics. And so has Fyunck. I am grateful there are seasoned long-time editors like Fyunck who know the Wiki better than me and has helped me in understanding Wiki a bit better and collaborated with me in various discussion on the Project's talk page and other articles. Has been kind, patient and taught me to communicate better. I wish you too were more understanding. I wouldn't want anything to happen to you because of some words in feat of anger. I get it. I am supporting one side, you the other. There will always be editors who don't always agree on the same thing, everyone has different opinions/ideas/preference, but at least find some common ground, but not like this. Going back and forth over some flags. Who cares about the flags, really. Let's keep it civil as grown people and continue editing in peace. It's best for everyone this way. Thank you. Best, Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:39, 21 November 2023 (UTC) I do not respond well to threats but in the interest of making this discussion “productive”, let me understand , what is the output of this talk. There are two people that are for the flags, Kacir, the initiator of the discussion and myself. There are two people against. My question is why are we keeping the flags if you don’t care, and since there is majority then (me and Kacir)? do you or Fyunck have a source that says we have to keep the flags? The current linked sources provided on the “current tennis rankings” page show there is no flags associated with the BLR/RUS players name. Why are you going against this by keeping the flags on the page, to me it is contradictory. Sashona (talk) 01:00, 21 November 2023 (UTC) Sashona, do what you will. I am done with this. Qwerty284651 (talk) 01:10, 21 November 2023 (UTC) I don’t want to go in and make changes again, to turn around and see that they have been undone. Since you undid my changes the last time on the current rankings, could you please restore them if we have a concensus in this discussion. Also on the “2023 WTA Tour” page the flags are back also, so whoever made the change, please restore my version so we are in synchronized with your version of the “2023 ATP Tour” page. Thank you for your help in resolving this. And btw would love to check the Project's talk page but not sure what Project you refer to and where is Project page. Sashona (talk) 01:20, 21 November 2023 (UTC) We do not have consensus and this is not the only time this was discussed. The Tennis Project had an RFC on it when it began. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:50, 21 November 2023 (UTC) @Sashona, this is the RFC on the BLR/RUS flags, Fyunck was talking about. Qwerty284651 (talk) 09:21, 21 November 2023 (UTC) @Qwerty284651 So ONLY ONE user Xc4TNS in the RFC from 2022 said keep the flags although he contradicts himself by confirming that “All removal of Russian flags on the ATP website is a boycott of using Russian symbols whilst the war is going on” and then you told that same person to stop adding flags in the rankings article, in the next discussion “RUS/BLR flagicons” in 2023. Which means someone has got rid of the flags in between August 2022 and January 2023 in disagreement. How is that consensus to keep the flags?! I am confused. No opposition and concensus are two very different things. Another source, the Olympics website goes a step further, they do not not even show the country let alone the flag. https://olympics.com/en/news/tennis-atp-men-singles-world-rankings-complete-list Sashona (talk) 19:46, 21 November 2023 (UTC) @Sashona, this page was created back in October 2022 as a draft and until late December. When I was revitalizing this page with between Dec 2022-Jan 2023, I was against the addition of the RUS/BLR flags. I had no idea about the RFC that had taken place back in August. Xc4TNS had added them couple of times, I removed them. See revision history Then I opened the above discussion, but Fyunck's comment on WTA/ATP having faulty software and removing all RUS/BLR flags from retired players as well, made me change my mind — to keep the BLR/RUS flags for the rankings. So, I did. ATP and WTA websites aren't flawless albeit being our primary sources. Qwerty284651 (talk) 14:13, 22 November 2023 (UTC) You must have changed your mind again since you removed the flags AND, in a step further, the country as well, actually, in page 2023 ATP Tour yesterday. Sashona (talk) 20:00, 22 November 2023 (UTC) See my latest edit from yesterday, Sashona. I restored them not removed them. You removed the flagicons, I removed the (RUS) and (BLR) in brackets and then used regex replacement to restore all back. I am for the flags to be kept in rankings, not be removed. Qwerty284651 (talk) 20:31, 22 November 2023 (UTC) So you changed your mind yet again, in the same day. Sashona (talk) 20:42, 22 November 2023 (UTC) Was my editing my comment as you commented. Hence the modified comment above to avoid edit conflict. Qwerty284651 (talk) 20:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC) So you made a change removing the country and then you undid your change, very confusing, and you restored to what version? Sashona (talk) 21:37, 22 November 2023 (UTC) Just look at the latest version. Geez. I restored all the flags. Period. End of discussion. Focus on the RFC instead. Qwerty284651 (talk) 23:48, 22 November 2023 (UTC) There are dozens of editors adding flags and removing flags all the time. And I can't help if we have a project-wide rfc and only three people show up... two of whom wanted to leave the flags and one who simply stated that the ATP/WTA websites are all screwed up on flags. I would have loved to have more input but sometimes that's all we get. Anyone had a chance to contribute. So it's the law of the land till another rfc. I can form another one at Tennis Project if you'd like? Maybe heaps more editors will agree with you and maybe not. Remember that Wikipedia is under no obligation to do anything that the ATP/WTA website does. We can have a ranking list with no flags or nationalities for anyone. We can have flags/nationalities for everyone. We can have some of each. Our standard consensus has always been to show all, but in March of 2022 we were thrown a curveball that has proven to be a bit messy. When it happened, very few here seemed interested in resolving it. It still seems like very few but perhaps a new RfC would show many more hands. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:20, 21 November 2023 (UTC) @Fyunck(click) Only ONE contributor @Xc4TNS in the RFC from 2022 said keep the flags, I am not sure where you got three. To have consensus on an RFC I would think there should be more then one person. No opposition does not mean consensus. How do we resolve this? we wait until someone shows up on this chat and comments, we open a new RFC or reuse the old one, what is the next step? Sashona (talk) 05:08, 26 November 2023 (UTC) I was waiting for the holiday to end here. The poster also counts as saying the ATP/WTA websites are broken and third person agreed that the sites are broken and unreliable. If no one else joined in that's not our problem. Many issues have been resolved by two people just because no one else cared on a particular issue. And since we built some consensus to keep them. But as I said, consensus can change especially when it started with few people agreeing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:40, 26 November 2023 (UTC) BTW, throughout the season, 2023 ATP Tour & 2023 WTA Tour Best rankings are recorded without BLR/RUS flagicons. The presence or absence of flagicons in their rankings is decided by the organizations that create those rankings. It's their circuit. No one else can make that decision for them. And in this respect the matter is clear. Kacir 01:44, 20 November 2023 (UTC) I agree Kacir, can you please restore the changes appropriately on the rankings page as I tried with no success despite providing reliable sources. Sashona (talk) 02:07, 20 November 2023 (UTC) I would like to see more editors comment here and create some sort of consensus. The edit war can end with some level of protection up to {{fper}}, which is not appropriate for an article requiring weekly updates. Kacir 18:43, 21 November 2023 (UTC) Considering it affects multiple articles it should be brought to Wikiproject Tennis. The last RFC on it had no opposition in keeping the flags. Perhaps consensus has changed from 2022. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:06, 21 November 2023 (UTC) @Fyunck(click), fire up the RFC. Let's get this thing settled once for all. Qwerty284651 (talk) 16:37, 26 November 2023 (UTC) The discussion has been started at Tennis Project. It's not an RfC since that brings in editors from all sports, society, and culture projects, and this is really a minor tennis chart issue. I followed WP:RFCBEFORE and made it a TennisProject discussion. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:20, 27 November 2023 (UTC) So this new Survey is not an RFC, the previous Survey was also not an RFC, since one person responded in the Survey, why do we continue going with the option to keep the flags vs not keeping the flags? Is the current decision based on one person opinion from a Survey? Sashona (talk) 21:39, 6 December 2023 (UTC) The last one WAS an RfC, but that really doesn't matter. An RfC is more formal and usually handles bigger issues than what icons to include in a tennis chart. That's why RfC's need multiple categories, and this would include Wikiprojects on society, sports, and culture. This is a very tennis specific entity. There was pretty much agreement by three parties so it became the law of the land. I can't help it if no one else wanted to (or chose not to) participate. That happens at WikiProject Tennis a lot. Articles get moved because one person wants to move it and no one else joins in to oppose. But even with all that, I started another discussion to see if consensus has changed. It's during the holiday season so it may take a month or so for folks to notice. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:13, 6 December 2023 (UTC) @Kacir, @Tvx1 and everyone reading this discussion, a new Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis#Shall we include flags/nationalities of Russian and Belarus players, from 1 March 2022 onwards, in our rankings charts? discussion which is also NOT an RFC it is being created as mentioned above so feel free to show your vote in the survey. Sashona (talk) 04:33, 28 November 2023 (UTC)