Talk:Cutting (sport)

what is the origin of the sport?

Where the sport originated

[1] The first advertised cutting contest was held at the 1898 Cowboy Reunion in Haskell, Texas. Further down it reads, The first record of cutting as an arena spectator event came at the Southwestern Exposition and Fat Stock Show in Fort Worth, Texas, when a cutting horse exhibition was added to the annual rodeo in 1919. It became a competitive event the following year. Cutting may have evolved from cattle ranches in the American West (anecdotal) but it wasn't until the competitions in Texas that cutting became recognized as an official "sport". The National Cutting Horse Association is the governing body of cutting horse events, and it was founded in Texas by Texas ranchers. Therefore, the "sport" of cutting fits in the category of Sports originating in Texas as much as Baseball fits in the category Sports originating in the United States. Atsme^📞📧 07:42, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Also - I corrected the infobox because it states rodeo as the venue for cutting, which is not quite accurate. Historically rodeo was a common association but that isn't the case today. Cutting has its own venue; i.e., Cutting horse shows and cutting events at horse shows. Cutting events are held during annual stock shows and rodeos (with emphasis on stock shows). Cutting is sometimes offered at various horse shows that are recognized by various breed associations, (AQHA, APHA), but they are primarily stand-alone events governed by either the National Cutting Horse Association (NCHA), or American Cutting Horse Association (ACHA). Also see [2], where it further defines the differences between rodeo events, and the cutting and reining and other horse show events which are separate from the rodeo. Cutting is not a rodeo sport per se. The Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association (PRCA) does not recognize cutting as a rodeo sport. Texas High School rodeos are one of the few venues (may be the only) that integrates cutting as part of their roster of rodeo events and offer a boys' cutting horse event and a girls' cutting horse event. Also see [3] under Policy Description. Cutting and reining are separated as horse show events while saddle bronc riding, bareback, bullriding, roping, etc. are actual rodeo events recognized by PRCA. The NCHA (exclusively) and AQHA (and other breed associations) offer more cutting events throughout the year than do all the annual stock shows and rodeos combined. Atsme^📞📧 08:46, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I'll take Texas, then, though may be worth clarifying in the article text to be clear that Texas didn't invent it, they only held the first competition... ;) I agree about the rodeo bit, though it may also be worth noting that, as you say, the first competition was added to a rodeo. I'm cool with fixing the sanctioning organizations, stuff. Um and yes, I do know the difference between a horse show and a rodeo... though I don't do cattle events, I have done reining, also, I've had to find cows for a cutting that was part of a horse show; I've never had to organize a rodeo! LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 01:04, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Love it! Thank you. Indeed a pleasure to be collaborating with you! Atsme^📞📧 01:17, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Tweaks to the article

Declaration - also, just advising collaborators that I have been tweaking here and there, and appreciate your review.

I bet you'd be hard-pressed to find anybody in the horse project who hasn't done something like that at least once in their lifetime.😉 White Arabian mare (Neigh) 22:03, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, White Arabian mare. That's good to know. 😊 I just thought it best to include my user page declaration here to be on the safe side because I shudder at the thought of enduring another wrongful COINoscopy. 😬 Atsme^📞📧 05:59, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I've wrestled with the question of expertise versus COI, and I actually think that meta handles it best. We all have areas where we know something and it's kind of silly that both {{connected}} and {{expert}} exist... my personal favorite WP essay is WP:CHEESE. Perfect neutrality is impossible; but NPOV is easily accomplished if everyone strives to fairly assess the source material and "teach the controversy." I had a really, really hard time with that when I was working on the article charreada, but I got there, and I think I got the other editors there too. All that said, the connected template's talk page has a comment about religion that just made me Facepalm . Montanabw^(talk) 21:14, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Article improvement

Did some minor work on the expansion; I'm thinking that a lot of what's in the lead could be moved down into the various sections, and they perhaps could be rearranged, competition and description could perhaps be merged; I don't think there is any need to be wedded to those headings. I'll take the backseat here, but will comment with an eye to the potential of this article to go GA, which would be cool! Montanabw^(talk) 22:06, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Your words are music to my ears! I'm being motivated by some of WP's top-shelf collaborators. ^^😊^^ Just a quick note - I build from the lede, and I realize quite a few editors work just the opposite. I respect that, but while the lede may look a bit oversized to you right now, it is actually minimal, and you'll see that when I finish expanding a couple of the sections. I will also be tweaking as we go along - tightening, removing redundancy, etc. Rest assured - what I intend to add won't be uninteresting, rhetorical, too long or too trivial. When the time comes to tweak and tighten, I have no doubt that our collaboration will have a good article when all is said and done...possibly even a featured article. I feel 30 yrs old again. PS: I work slow. 😆 Atsme^📞📧 23:55, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Montanabw, re: the bridle-bit terminology in the infobox, to maintain accuracy, I made a slight modification to more closely follow NCHA judging rule 16 - [4] which states, Horses must be ridden with a bridle having a bit in the mouth or with a hackamore. Too many assumptions are made about bridles, particularly bitless bridles, and since the rulebook states bit specifically, it should be included in the infobox. Thank you for drawing my attention to it. Atsme^📞📧 13:56, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

LOL! I may have been editing WP too long, but I had a major knock-down, drag-out a few years back with one of those bitless bridle idiots (who had invented her own "riding halter" no less) over the definition of a "bridle" and I actually unearthed the OED to show that the definition of a "bridle" means, basically, a headstall with a bit... so I'm with ya. And I presume by hackamore, the NCHA actually means the real bosal-type hackamore and not the various other types of bitless headgear (like the mechanical hackamore and such)? Sigh, those who scream "article owner" at me don't have to deal with these idiots... (whine, grumble, kvetch, please someone tell me I'm fighting the good fight against idiots) Montanabw^(talk) 21:36, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

🙃 I read ya loud and clear! Also wanted to mention that I created articles for the 3 events in the NCHA Triple Crown - maybe we should make a template for it, or no? NCHA World Championship Futurity, NCHA Super Stakes, NCHA Derby. I've also been busy gathering historic photographs of some of the horse industry's legends, including Poco Bueno, Poco Lena, Pine Johnson, etc. Funny how we sometimes take things like that for granted...until we get old enough to realize how important it was all along. Atsme^📞📧 22:08, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think a template is needed, yet, though a list article or a navbox for western riding events generally might be worth thinking about. Montanabw^(talk) 07:53, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh no, the bitless bridle horror! Seriously, though, I think we could use an equestrian sports competition template to use on the event and show articles. White Arabian Filly (Neigh) 00:46, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

We do have a big one: {{Equestrian Sports}} Montanabw^(talk) 06:11, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh, now I see what you're talking about, Montanabw. Shucks, I apologize for the confusion but I have a time of it while trying to remember all the WP acronyms and terminology. I was thinking about a Part of a series on... navigation template. Example: Template:Celtic_mythology. Of course, each article in the loop needs to be expanded and several have to be created before it will look good and serve a bonafide purpose instead of it being an ugly infobox cluttering the page. Anyway, it was just a suggestion. Also, rather than limit the navbox to the Triple Crown, it should probably include the major cutting events starting with the Triple Crown, and then adding to it as the respective articles have been created/expanded, such as the cutting at the All American Quarter Horse Congress, the Pacific Coast Futurity, the Augusta Futurity, and other prestigious events on the circuit when one is vying for NCHA Top Ten, the World Championship title and/or the National Championship. Atsme^📞📧 15:05, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of the side navbox in general, and I really like infoboxes for the individual articles, and up to about four articles, the see also section can handle it. (Also, a navbox with only three things is kind of light for a navbox). But I could see cutting or stock events, standing alone, as an idea... an infobox for the individual article, with the side navbox added... hmmm... One thing that can help refine ideas for a navbox, though, would be a list, such as List of rodeos. Maybe List of major cutting horse competitions would be an idea... Ping me if you do it! Montanabw^(talk) 08:55, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Images

Montanabw, I added back the Pacific Cutting Horse Assoc. photo because it's one of the aged events mentioned in the article, and the banner behind the working horse has the name of the futurity on it. It depicts the event - banners and all - and it also gives us the balance for male and female participation. It's a great shot of a young horse working. I had the photog and the rider submit the proper licensing to permissions before I added it, so it's all good there, too. Atsme^📞📧 12:27, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I saw it restored by an IP, thought it was a drive-by. Two problems: 1) at thumbnail size, it's very "busy" when compared to the other images and it's hard to separate the action from the background (at least on my laptop), 2) this article is about cutting as a sport, not NCHA events (I can se it being a good add to the NCHA article for the reasons you mention, though), 3) it's really poorly placed - maybe there's an argument to be made to put it way down in the section on competition rules??? Montanabw^(talk) 23:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Montanabw uh oh - thought I was logged-in. I've been traveling, and didn't bother to check. Sorry about that. The reason I included the PCCHA Futurity image in this article rather than the NCHA article is because it is not an NCHA produced event. [5] Monies earned at the PCCHA Futurity do count toward NCHA lifetime earnings. The PCCHA Futurity is a 3-yr.-old aged event held in October before the NCHA Futurity (late Nov-Dec); therefore, the horse is ineligible to show in the NCHA Futurity (for 3-yr. olds that have never been shown). Since the PCCHA is a LAE cutting, I thought it best to include it in this article. 😊 Atsme^📞📧 03:26, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I popped it back in, but lower down where we needed an image. Montanabw^(talk) 04:13, 15 December 2015 (UTC)