Talk:Cuz I Can (album)
Latest comment: 10 years ago by In ictu oculi in topic Requested move
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Requested move
edit- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 18:34, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
– The apostrophe preceding "Cuz" for the song is insufficient to distinguish these virtually identical titles, and in any case is not consistently used in sources. I would also retarget Cuz I Can (Pink song), which currently redirects to the album, I'm Not Dead, even though the song has its own article. bd2412 T 20:49, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Weak support - these are an improvement, but we are still making life difficult for anyone trying to find the articles. Instead we should reveal the artist's names. Stronger support for: Cuz I Can (Ana Johnsson album), Coz I Can (Ana Johnsson song), 'Cuz I Can (Pink song), and move dab Cuz I can (disambiguation) → Cuz I Can. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:33, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Is that entirely necessary? There's only one album, although there are some similarly titled songs. bd2412 T 00:46, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Sure it's entirely necessary for the 2 songs (the Swedish song is also "Cuz" on its first release), it will merely be helpful for the album. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support per nom, though prefer IIO's suggestion -- 70.50.151.11 (talk) 05:14, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- I have no strong objection to IIO's proposal. It would be an improvement over the current state of affairs. bd2412 T 12:29, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support. What a mess. Cuz I Can (album) definitely needs to happen to distinguish it both from the Pink song and the Ana Johnsson song "Coz I Can", which has a version titled "Cuz I Can" according to the article. (album) doesn't need further disambiguation per WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE. 'Cuz I Can (song) also needs to happen for the same reason, and Cuz I Can (Pink song) may be a better option. I oppose moving Coz I Can, considering there's no other article with that spelling and the base title would have nowhere to point to. The hatnote I've added should be sufficient. The recently created dab page should be moved to Cuz I Can.--Cúchullain t/c 21:41, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- WP:CONCISE is only 1 of 5x WP:CRITERIA, and spelled out has "The basic goal of conciseness is balancing brevity with sufficient information to identify the topic in a way the average person searching for it will recognize." No average person, and I hazard not even specialist diehard fans of Pink or Ana Johnsson when asked on the street whether the song was "Coz" or "Cuz" will know the difference. And as stated above both songs have been released as "Cuz". WP:PRECISE, again one of the 5 Criteria says
Usually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that. For instance, Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta is too precise, as Mother Teresa is precise enough to indicate exactly the same topic. On the other hand, Horowitz would not be precise enough to identify unambiguously the famous classical pianist Vladimir Horowitz.
- It should be clear that WP:PRECISE is about title length, it has nothing to do with whether readers will benefit from concealing the artist name in two songs both released, once, as "Cuz". The confusion exists so Coz I Can (Ana Johnsson) helps everyone - particularly iPhone users - and hurts no one. Our normal titling rules which were designed for Georgia and Georgia do not help among the mass of non-distinctive song and album titles. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:51, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- WP:PRECISE means enough to distinguish the article from others, "but no more precise than that." Meaning, artificial parentheticals aren't added unless necessary for disambiguation. Additionally, titles need to be WP:CONCISE ("no longer than necessary"). They also should be natural, meaning the subject's actual common name if available; artificial parentheticals aren't natural, and again, aren't used unless needed for disambiguation. Only one of these articles is titled "Coz I Can"; it doesn't need to be moved. If anyone is confused, the hatnote I added gets them where they want just as quickly as a dab page, and without directing all readers to a dead end.
- However, both of the articles in the actual proposal are ambiguous and need to be moved.--Cúchullain t/c 15:55, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
- Repeat - both songs have been released as Cuz I Can, please see the article. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:12, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- Repeat - only one has been released as Coz I Can, so that one doesn't need to be moved.--Cúchullain t/c 23:30, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- So what about readers who are aware of the original name of the Ana Jonson song as "Cuz I Can" in 2004 and don't know that it was re-released as "Coz I Can" in 2005? Please explain how such a reader can avoid confusion with 'Cuz I Can (Pink song)? Note that the record companies did not conceal the name of the artist when the two singles were released, both clearly declare the names of the artists on their covers: Ana Jonson "Cuz I Can" vs Pink "Cuz I Can" and all sources in both articles clearly disclose the names of the respective singers. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
- If a reader types "Cuz I Can" they'd go to the dab page listing all the articles that may be called that, including "Coz I Can", since it has a version spelled "Cuz". If they type in "Coz I Can" looking for something that's not actually called that, the hat note will get them where they're going as easily as a dab page would. I already said the Pink song should be moved in my first comment (which you responded to). Not sure what's hard to understand about this.--Cúchullain t/c 03:16, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
- What's hard to understand is why you are opposed to having the artist's names in this case. Currently when I type "Cuz I... " on my Android mobile I get Cuz I Can and 'Cuz I Can, Cuz I Can (song) and Cuz I can (disambiguation) as the 4 options. The first 2 display thumbnails from the infobox's for the Ana Jonson album and Pink song articles, and it is actually the thumbnails which would disambiguate - without the thumbnails the Android reader is lost, presumably for iPhones it is worse. But on a PC, using the drop down rh search box there are no thumbnails, so the articles cannot be distinguished - and of course the 3rd article Cuz I Can (Ana Johnson song) apparently isn't showing on either [except that it is showing since Cuz I Can (song) is currently a redirect to the Johnson song not to the Pink one].
- Anyway, can you please clarify the last comment, you support or oppose Cuz I Can (Pink song)? That wasn't clear. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:09, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
- If someone types in "Cuz I Can", "Coz I Can (Ana Johnsson song)" wouldn't show up in a dropdown list even with the unnecessary parentheses - it's a distinct spelling. However, it is included on the dab page. There's literally no purpose for adding the parenthetical there. The reason Cuz I Can (Ana Johnson song) wasn't showing up for you was because it didn't exist; I've now created it.
- As for the Pink song, I've already said, twice now, that it should be moved, due to confusion with Ana Johnsson's version of "Cuz I Can". Cuz I Can (Pink song) may be a better name for it. I don't know how that could be confusing.--Cúchullain t/c 12:32, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
- Good enough. bd2412 T 17:38, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- If a reader types "Cuz I Can" they'd go to the dab page listing all the articles that may be called that, including "Coz I Can", since it has a version spelled "Cuz". If they type in "Coz I Can" looking for something that's not actually called that, the hat note will get them where they're going as easily as a dab page would. I already said the Pink song should be moved in my first comment (which you responded to). Not sure what's hard to understand about this.--Cúchullain t/c 03:16, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
- So what about readers who are aware of the original name of the Ana Jonson song as "Cuz I Can" in 2004 and don't know that it was re-released as "Coz I Can" in 2005? Please explain how such a reader can avoid confusion with 'Cuz I Can (Pink song)? Note that the record companies did not conceal the name of the artist when the two singles were released, both clearly declare the names of the artists on their covers: Ana Jonson "Cuz I Can" vs Pink "Cuz I Can" and all sources in both articles clearly disclose the names of the respective singers. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
- Repeat - only one has been released as Coz I Can, so that one doesn't need to be moved.--Cúchullain t/c 23:30, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- Repeat - both songs have been released as Cuz I Can, please see the article. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:12, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- WP:PRECISE means enough to distinguish the article from others, "but no more precise than that." Meaning, artificial parentheticals aren't added unless necessary for disambiguation. Additionally, titles need to be WP:CONCISE ("no longer than necessary"). They also should be natural, meaning the subject's actual common name if available; artificial parentheticals aren't natural, and again, aren't used unless needed for disambiguation. Only one of these articles is titled "Coz I Can"; it doesn't need to be moved. If anyone is confused, the hatnote I added gets them where they want just as quickly as a dab page, and without directing all readers to a dead end.
- It should be clear that WP:PRECISE is about title length, it has nothing to do with whether readers will benefit from concealing the artist name in two songs both released, once, as "Cuz". The confusion exists so Coz I Can (Ana Johnsson) helps everyone - particularly iPhone users - and hurts no one. Our normal titling rules which were designed for Georgia and Georgia do not help among the mass of non-distinctive song and album titles. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:51, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
- Geez, that really was a mess. I think I got everything, but BD2412, In ictu oculi, and Cuchullain, feel free to check my work. The song ended up going to 'Cuz I Can (Pink song). If I missed anything obvious, go ahead and just fix it. If you want to discuss anything, head to my talk page. --BDD (talk) 18:47, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- You nailed it as far as I'm concerned. All that remains to be done is fixing redirects that now point to the dab page, but that should be easy enough.--Cúchullain t/c 18:55, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- Looks good to me, too. Cheers! bd2412 T 19:33, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes that will improve things for both terrestrial and iPhone readers. Thanks to BD2412 for having brought the RM as well. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- Looks good to me, too. Cheers! bd2412 T 19:33, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- You nailed it as far as I'm concerned. All that remains to be done is fixing redirects that now point to the dab page, but that should be easy enough.--Cúchullain t/c 18:55, 24 March 2014 (UTC)