Talk:Cyril Toumanoff

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Hi Kober, I wasn't able to find much biographical information about Toumanoff but as it stands now the article is unsourced, The source that I provided which you removed only said "Born in St. Petersburg of an old Armeno-Georgian house...". I'll readd it in this context. It would nice to have a source for Georgian father/Russian mother though, regardless of the language of origin of the reference. Apparently Robert H. Hewsen has written an article about Toumanoff after his passing but I wasn't able to find it.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 13:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The Wikipedia information on Toumanoff is essentially accurate in that it comes from my obituary based on his conversations over thirty years of friendship. His father was of an Armenian noble family long settled in Georgia, where they had a principality centered at Kheltubani. The family was heavily intermarried with the Georgian nobility. One branch (Tumaniani) remained in the Armenian Church; another converted to Orthodoxy and followed the Georgian Church (Tumanishvili. His mother was of a highly mixed background descended in part from a Mongol family (Zhdanov) that had settled in Russia and converted to Christianity, Toumanoff was of the Orthodox Toumanishvili line but he persoally converted to Roman Catholicism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.168.129.132 (talk) 02:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

It would be great if you could incorporate this information and expand the article with a supporting citation. Thanks.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 02:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello everyone, I found an article which includes all the above information here, Robert H. Hewsen. "In Memoriam: Cyril Toumanoff." Journal of the Society for Armenian Studies. Vol. 8, 1995, 5-7. Is it possible that someone can combine that one article I have cited numerous times into just one source?--The Diamond Apex (talk) 23:42, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Done. Grandmaster 04:47, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Kober megobaro chemo, Ra somekhi? Es Tumanishvili iqo anu Tumanian? Tumanishvili iqo. Es Kartveli iqo da Somekhi ar iqo.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

absoluturad veTanxmebi Babakexorramdin-s. --Zolokin (talk) 23:31, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Please mind that this is the English Wikipedia and all discussion has to be in the language understandable for all users. --Vacio (talk) 23:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I just answered in Georgian to Babakexorramdin's Georgian commentary. Really sorry.--Zolokin (talk) 23:49, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Noble family Tumanian doesn’t exist. Noble family is only Tumanishvili.--Zolokin (talk) 09:22, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

?

What to discuss? In a source all is written--Lori-m (talk) 19:48, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean? Does the source say that Cyril Toumanoff was Tumanian and his 15th-century Armenian ancestry makes him Armenian? Beyond that you have reverted many other valid changes I've recently introduced in the article. Do you still think that there's nothing to discuss? --Kober^Talk 20:09, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

About what I write, writes a source. You change the information from a source. After 15 centuries what there were only Georgians? Can you give a source, what in 20 century they were all Georgians? The sort was not cleanly Georgian.

• Guram Maysuradze (Проблемы истории Закавказья// Мецниереба, 1991) said:

  Из тбилисских армян своей русской ориентацией отличились мелик-мамасахлиси столицы Дарчн Бебутян (Бебуташвили), Сулхан Бегтабегян (Бегтабеги- швили , который занимал высокую должность при дворе Ираклия II), Сулхан Туманян (Туманишвили), ...

• Парсадан Жоржижанид //История Грузии // Мецниереба, 1990 - 189

  Сиаош Бараташвили сказал, что в царевича стрелял Байняур Туманишвили. Тот отрицал это. Поэтому их заставили сразиться, и повелением бога правда выявилась. Оба они, грузин Бараташвили и армянин Туманишвили, согласно своей вере....

• Ш. ЧХЕТИЯ // АРМЯНЕ В ТБИЛИСИ Щ ШЕСТИДЕСЯТЫХ ГОДАХ XIX ВЕКА(К 1500-летию города Тбилиси) // [1]

  В последующие века армяне продолжают принимать активное участие в политической и общественной жизни Грузии. При грузинском дворе и на государственной службе мы видим дипломатов, государственных я военных деятелей армян:Бектабеговых, Коргановых, Аргутинских-Долгоруковых(потомки Мхаргрдзели), Тумановых (упомянутые выше Туманишвили), Бебутовых и других. Здесь мы должны подчеркнуть, что мелихом (городским головой) Тбилиси при грузинских царях традиционно назначался армянин

• P.Muradian // Армяно-грузинские литературные взаимоотношения в XVIII веке // Изд-во АН Армянской ССР, 1966 p.20(223)

  Грузиноязычных поэтов и ашугов-армян особенно много во второй половине XVIII столетия. Большую роль как в политической, так и в литературной жизни Грузии XVIII века играл род Туманянов-Туманишвили-Тумановых.

• Шота Месхия // Города и городской строй феодальной Грузии

  Они обвиняли армянина по происхождению Баиндура Туманишвили, т. е. по словам историка XVII в. Парсадана Горгиджанидзе — они обвиняли армян: грузинское дворянство «хотело свалить кровную ответственность за это на армян»

  --Lori-m (talk) 21:44, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

All these sources refer to the persons active from the 16th to the 18th centuries. I do agree that the larger House of Tumanishvili, especially early in their history, was Armeno-Georgian. No doubt about that and this is acknowledged in the current article by a brief note about the Armenian roots. Let me also remind you that the basic principle which divided the House into "Armenian" and "Georgian" lines was their religion. And Prince Cyril Toumanoff did come from the Orthodox family. Further, the line of Princes (knyaz) as recognized by the Russian Empire was exclusively Georgian. Moreover, I have not yet seen any source 1. referring to Prince Cyril Toumanoff as "Armenian", 2. pointing to his usage of Armenian or Georgian forms of the family name, 3. indicating that his immediate ancestors (note I mean his family, not the wider House of Tumanishvili/Tumanyan) used the Tumanyan form (and this is simply impossible because the princely members of the family were of Georgian line). I'm waiting for the sources proving otherwise. --Kober^Talk 04:00, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Tumanov's only Georgians? You should prove it. You have a source? I have a source. You constantly change its information. In a source it is written Armeno-Georgian family Tumanov. You write Georgian family Tumanishvili. You do original research.--Lori-m (talk) 06:41, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

I think you should re-read my post. Did I say that "Tumanov's only Georgians"? I think I have clearly explained my reasoning. Please also note the article is not about the family, but the individual. We are discussing his immediate ancestry, are not we? I don't want to repeat myself, so please again refer to my previous post. Thanks, --Kober^Talk 17:06, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Properly. Article about the person! You delete the information on the person. The information from a source, but you delete it. I again ask, why you delete the information? I have not received the due answer--Lori-m (talk) 22:22, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

You either did not get what I said or don't want to understand it. I have to repeat myself. When referring to the Tumanishvii/Tumanov as Armeno-Georgian, "Armeno" is a reference to their Armenian origin or Armenian ethno-religious background of some of its early members. However, they, as a PRINCELY family, were Georgian. The family into which Prince Cyril Toumanoff was born and their immediate ancestors were Georgians bearing the surname of Tumanishvili or its Russified form Tumanov (Toumanoff). Cyril Toumanoff himself, in his list of Georgian princely families (see his magnum opus Studies in Christian Caucasian History, p. 270), mentions the family as Tumanishvili. Grebelsky, P. Kh., Dumin, S. V., Lapin, V. V. (1993), Дворянские роды Российской империи (Noble families of Russian Empire), vol. 4, the largest text ever produced dealing with the noble families of the Russian Empire, refers to the family exclusively as Князья Тумановы (Туманишвили) (Princes Toumanoff [Tumanishvili]), without any mention of Tumanyan. Please also see Ferrand, Jacques (1983), Familles princières de Géorgie: essai de reconstitution généalogique (1880-1983) de 21 familles reconnues princières par l'Empire de Russie, p. 209: "Toumanichvili (Toumanoff)". Also, a list of the princes of the Russian Empire here, based mainly on the above sources:

TUMANOV (ТУМАНОВ) I - Georgia

Princes of Satumanishvilo (Iberia), descended from the Mamikonids. Author Prince Tumana the Mamikonid (c. 1250). List of Princes (in Kartli): 24 July 1783. Russia* (IC) 7 Mar. 1826; confirmations: 6 May 1847, 10 May and 1 Dec. 1848, 16 July 1851, 12 May and 27 Oct. 1854, 5 and 12 Jan. 1855, 15 Mar. 1872, and 27 May 1856.

In Georgian: Tumanishvili

Sources: MPG, STRL, TN, TRRI I

Again, as the princely line they were known as Tumanishvili in Georgia and as Tumanov (Toumanoff) in Russia. Prince Cyril was born in the family of Tumanishvili/Toumanoff, not Tumanyan.--Kober^Talk 04:37, 12 November 2011 (UTC)