Talk:Czech Republic in the Eurovision Song Contest

Red-2008

If Germany, who actually came third-last, is coloured in red, why shouldn't we do it with Czech Republic, who came second-last? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.44.159.115 (talk) 10:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

That was a mistake, I'll fix the color for Germany. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:11, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Czech Republic or Czechia?

Since the country enters officially as 'Czech Republic', should it not be referred to by the same name? DanielEnnisTV ✉ 18:27, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

It has always been referred to the country with this name since it is the official one, I don't know who changed its name as if nothing had happened but I hope that someone systems as soon as possible. Dominikcapuan Dominikcapuan 21:28, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Gallery

I notice that in the gallery at the bottom of the page, all the white performers have been included, while the only 2 non-white participants (gypsy.cz and Benny Cristo) have been omitted. While I know country pages don't show all participants in the gallery, it's rather conspicuous, especially as Benny was one of the most recent competitors. The Czech Republic has a reputation for being one of, if not the most racist countries in Europe toward black people and Roma people, omitting the black and Roma participants isn't helping. Please either add them both, or at least delete one of the white participants (e.g. Martina Barta or Tereza Kerndlova) and put Benny Cristo there instead. 2A02:8309:2183:7800:A20B:3B64:D2A6:5207 (talk) 13:16, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons is limited in the fact that only images which are in the public domain or which have been licensed for non-commercial use are allowed. A small number of non-free imagery is permitted but only when fair use is applicable, which it does not in this case. Please see Wikipedia's image use policy for further information on this. Your assertion that this is a racist decision is categorically false, and is simply because there are no applicable images of those two artists within Wikimedia Commons. There may be some images of these artists available, however the purpose of this section is to highlight specifically their performances at Eurovision, and is not a place to add random images of competing artists outside of Eurovision. The reasoning I would suspect for why there are no applicable photos of Benny Cristo is that that year's contest was held under COVID conditions, and so the number of people attending would be lower, leading to fewer people who might upload their own photos. Should relevant photos of their performances on stage at Eurovision become available then of course they can be added. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 13:29, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 10 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. The editors in support of the proposal presented a policy-based argument for why the title can be changed to Czechia and WP:CONSISTENCY does not apply but they failed to provide a policy-based argument for why the title should be changed to Czechia. Those in opposition, however, did present such an argument; they claimed that in relation to Eurovision "Czech Republic" remains the WP:COMMONNAME.

As this claim was made without evidence it was a weak argument but as those in support of this move did not reject the claim I find it sufficiently convincing to establish a consensus against this move. However, should there be evidence now or in the future that in relation to Eurovision "Czechia" is the common name then a new move request would be appropriate and likely to find consensus.

The alternative proposal, to maintain the title of the article but pipe links to it as Czechia, is beyond the scope of an RM and has too wide an impact to discuss solely on this page. (non-admin closure) BilledMammal (talk) 08:44, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

---

Czech Republic in the Eurovision Song Contest → Czechia in the Eurovision Song Contest – The country looks to be referred to as "Czechia" instead of "Czech Republic" at Eurovision. This page should reflect this change. XxLuckyCxX (talk) 21:26, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. It's a similar case to WP:MOSMAC (EBU used FYR Macedonia, but Wikipedia used Macedonia). According to the Czech Republic article, the country is still known as Czech Republic with "Czechia" being a short form version. The term that the EBU opted to use does not change the formal name of the country or impact how others should refer to it. The existing article name is still valid. Grk1011 (talk) 21:55, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Wikipedia policy is to use Czech Republic, Turkey and Ivory Coast, and never Czechia, Türkiye, or Côte d'Ivoire. That's why we must stick to this article title, it'd knock over too many dominoes. doktorb _words^deeds 22:01, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

  Sure, it would be the first article on Wikipedia with Czechia in its title. The fear that it would cause other changes... Well it quite possibly would, but only with similar articles like Czech Republic at the Olympics. Not the general ones like Demographics of the Czech Republic. Chrz (talk) 23:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Correct is officialy - "long" name in English: Czech Republic (endonym Česká republika), Republic of Türkiye (endonym Türkiye Cumhuriyeti), Republic of Côte d'Ivoire (endonym: république de Côte d'Ivoire). Short name is Czechia, Turkey and Ivory Coast (English exonyms + short names), endonyms: Česko, Türkiye, Côte d'Ivoire. Svehlovka (talk) 10:11, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONSISTENT for consistency with the main article title. Rreagan007 (talk) 23:39, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose move. This is the same as the Macedonia situation. O.N.R. ^(talk) 04:28, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. It is the situation as Macedonia. Even though the EBU presents them as Czechia, in Wikipedia they are known as Czech Republic just like Ivory Coast and Turkey are not Cote D'Ivoire and Türkiye. DSOFOreverTYU ~ talk ~ Eurovision 11:41, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support - Follow the sources, do not create artificial unified reality. Your examples are not relevant, United States have multiple identities on Wikipedia (US, USA, United States, United States of America), same with UK (United Kingdom, GB, Great Britain, Britain). Macedonia had its own specific recommendation. Also Olympic Athletes from Russia at the 2018 Winter Olympics, not Russia at the 2018 Winter Olympics... So is it COUNTRY in the Eurovision Song Contest, or CONTESTANT in the Eurovision Song Contest? Translating list of participants from English (source) to English (Wikipedia) in the name of consistency... Chrz (talk) 11:55, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Wikipedia and other sources do that "translating" all the time. I have seen no source refer to the Czech Republic as "Czechia", or Turkey as "Türkiye"; even in a Eurovision context. This also goes for other things than countries; for example, the official site refers to Sam Ryder's song as "SPACE MAN", but on Wikipedia it's "Space Man". The "official" source is not an authority on what should be on Wikipedia.

  By the way, the Olympic Athletes from Russia example is different because Russia did not actually compete in the 2018 Winter Olympics. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 12:44, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  @Jochem van Hees: the official Eurovision site refers to those countries as Czechia and Türkiye, the upload of the Czech entry is labeled as Czechia and Escxtra reported that the EBU confirmed to them that the name will in fact change. The country is competing in the event as Czechia, we should reflect that. ImStevan (talk) 13:22, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  @ImStevan: yes, I already knew all of that. It was already mentioned in the discussion multiple times. And I addressed that in my comment. Is there something I am not understanding according to you? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 21:16, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  "I have seen no source refer to the Czech Republic as "Czechia", or Turkey as "Türkiye"; even in a Eurovision context." ImStevan (talk) 23:17, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Oh. I mean, yeah, other than the official website. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 23:53, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support - Other examples on Wikipedia exist where the name of the main article of a country is not used for it at an event (two examples of this are Great Britain at the Olympics as opposed to using the United Kingdom, and Chinese Taipei at the Olympics as opposed to using Taiwan). As the country is now officially presented as Czechia in the contest, it should be presented as such in this article to reflect this. Whatever the outcome of this will be, the article should be written along the lines of "The Czech Republic, presented in the contest as Czechia since 2023, has participated at the Eurovision Song Contest 10 times since making its debut in 2007." Aris Odi ❯❯❯ talk 12:43, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• Support - I second the above comment, if the country is gonna be presented as Czechia at Eurovision, then the articles about Czechia at Eurovision should follow suit. ImStevan (talk) 13:19, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Wikipedia policy is to use Czech Republic. We can't override that. doktorb _words^deeds 14:33, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  I do not see this going against Wikipedia policy, the above mentioned policies mention nothing about how a country is presented in an event, and if that were the case, then there would be no other articles that exist using a different name, however, as already proven with articles such as Great Britain at the Olympics, that is just simply not the case. Aris Odi ❯❯❯ talk 15:04, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Recent unification efforts of History of the Czech lands failed. Policy is not as strong as you think, it does not reach everywhere. On the other hand recent Czech Republic men's national ice hockey team failed even though Czechia is already used by IIHF, same with Member states of NATO. Maybe eurosong enthusiasts will bring better arguments :) Chrz (talk) 16:59, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

What about Chinese Taipei at the Olympics and Great Britain at the Olympics? Are those not names that aren't supposed to be used according to Wikipedia policy? And yet they are because...That's what the teams are called. ImStevan (talk) 15:02, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support - It's high time Wikipedia gets on with the times. The short name is now official in Eurovision, please make it official here as well for a matter of consistency instead of pretending it isn't catching on. Sergiovision1234 (talk) 15:48, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• Support Taiwan competes as Chinese Taipei in the Olympics, Czech Republic competing as Czechia in ESC is the same situation. It's not the country's official name changing but the name under which the nation participates in a specific event so I don't see how it would affect the overall wikipedia policy. AdamantiosK (talk) 16:20, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• Support Wikipedia should reflect reality. Does Czechia take part with the short name? YES! So what's the deal? Stop all these double standards, please!Helveticus96 (talk) 15:31, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• Support: Czechia is an official short, geographic name of the country. It is necessary to respect this fact. LuxAntiqua (talk) 16:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• Support If the Eurovision Song Contest's website says "Czechia" is the participant in the competition then Wikipedia should be consistent with the official source. Koristka (talk) 16:12, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• Support As a Czech, I feel that Czechia is correct, as it refers to our long history and also corresponds to international law. 193.179.60.245 (talk) 21:35, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  Personally I agree, but Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 21:38, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. From what I can tell there's two main arguments in favour. A lot of people mention that the article should be moved merely because "Czechia" is the official name; for those people, please see Wikipedia:Official names. The other, more compelling argument is that other articles exist using "Great Britain" or "Chinese Taipei". However, I think the difference here is that, in the context of the Olympics, most English-language sources use that name over the conventional name, so that name is more recognisable and natural (two of the five WP:CRITERIA). However, in the context of Eurovision, there has not been such a shift in what English-language sources say (yet) about the Czech Republic. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 21:33, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

  At least, I am glad to hear promising "in the context of" instead of the omnipresent "must unify everything everywhere". Chrz (talk) 21:59, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

• Mostly Support Honestly, if Taiwan at the Olympics is presented on this wiki as "Chinese Taipei", then there isn't really any reason why this page shouldn't have the name changed, unless most sources in English still use Czech Republic. If that is the case, then it isn't a matter of if the article's name should be changed, but when. OrlandoApollosFan69 (talk) 23:34, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• Support Well, the Eurovision Song Contest uses Czechia. And arguments with Türkiye and Côte d'Ivoire are invalid since Czechia is not an endonym. --Martin Tauchman (talk) 00:42, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

  Why do you think being an endonym or exonym makes a difference? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 11:03, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

  Because exonyms work more naturally in the language. Martin Tauchman (talk) 11:04, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

  If an endonym becomes widely used in English then it becomes natural. "Amsterdam" and "Paris" are endonyms and they work perfectly fine in English. So what really matters is how people use the words, not where they come from. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 14:53, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

  Well, but there are no English exonym for Paris or Amsterdam. In the case of Turkey and the Ivory Cost. there are. Martin Tauchman (talk) 21:08, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support Czechia requested to be called by its up-to date official short name Czechia in all circumstances where short names of other countries are used, for example Slovakia, Austria, Germany, Poland. The short name of the country used to be identical with its long name, Czech Republic (1993‒2016), but it's since been updated to its traditional name Czechia (2016‒). As per Czechia's request, Eurovision updated the name of the country to Czechia. Not one country on Eurovision is listed by their formal or former names. I don't understand the logic behind purposefully advocating publishing old information as current on an online encyclopedia such as Wikipedia, which has the inherent advantage of being able to publish the most up-to-date information as it happens. Wikipedia as an online encyclopedia has the responsibility to reflect Reality. Otherwise, what's the point? Danda Panda (talk) 22:49, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

  I mean yes, but that would be an argument for moving every Czech Republic-related article to the new name. That has been proposed and rejected several times; see Talk:Czech Republic. The main reason is that "Czech Republic" is much more widely used and recognised than "Czechia". Wikipedia does not per se follow official (long or short) names; see Wikipedia:Official names. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 14:43, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose The EBU's naming convention for the country should not be factored in for as long as the overall Wikipedia convention remains to keep other articles related to this country as "Czech Republic". My fear would be that any change that we might as a community unilaterally make to change the article would be superceded at a overall Wikipedia level. As WP:MOSMAC has precedence here as well, and we don't name Macedonian articles pre-2019 as "FYR Macedonia", nor do any articles refer to Türkiye, neither should we at this stage change these articles to Czechia. While the usage of the name Czechia is growing, and will likely at some point in future reach critical mass to justify renaming all articles to Czechia, now is not that moment. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:34, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

  But Wikipedia uses the term ‘Great Britain’ for the United Kingdom in sports articles. Martin Tauchman (talk) 20:31, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

  This is not an analogous situation as there is a difference between the United Kingdom and Great Britain however, as GB refers to the island within which England, Scotland and Wales are located, whereas the UK includes GB and Northern Ireland. In some cases sports bodies are organised on an all-Ireland basis (as in covering athletes in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland), so using the UK to refer to the GB team here would not make logical sense. With this in mind therefore this is not a relevant analogy to justify renaming these articles, as Czech Republic and Czechia both refer to the same area of land within Central Europe. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:12, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

  IDK, Great Britain at the Olympics: "While the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and BOA both refer to the team as 'Great Britain' and the team uses the brand name Team GB, the BOA explains that it is a contraction of the full title, the Great Britain and Northern Ireland Olympic Team." So... Chrz (talk) 17:00, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

  I don't exactly understand what the point is you're trying to make here. Is it that you believe Great Britain and the United Kingdom are synonymous? (If so please read the third paragraph of the lead of Great Britain) Yes within the Olympics Team GB represents the UK as a whole, however many sports bodies represent the island of Ireland as a whole, including Northern Ireland separate from the rest of the UK (see Category:All-island sports governing bodies in Ireland for a comprehensive list). The crux of the issue with this is how it relates to Czech Republic/Czechia within the concept of Eurovision. It's already been established that Great Britain and the United Kingdom refer to different land masses, whereas Czech Republic and Czechia are the same country, and both titles are valid. This is similar to many other countries, e.g. France and the French Republic, both of which are valid ways of referring to that country, only one is the shorter form. For this example France is widely used everywhere, within and without Wikipedia to refer to the country, whereas Czech Republic is still the predominant form for referring to this country (quick Google search for "Czech Republic" brings up 428 million results compared to 49.7 million results for "Czechia"), and within Wikipedia there is still no consensus to change to Czechia on a widespread scale, and until this is achieved we as a WikiProject shouldn't unilaterally go and change things on our side. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 19:21, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

  It shows same country CAN use two different names for article titles on Wikipedia, what matters is the context (not land mass). In the context of Eurovision (2023+) Czechia competes. Quick Google search for the last month shows 19 million to 6 million, so the gap is closing and it is quite pointless to play the game "Czechia nowhere or everywhere" and accept the "context dualism". Chrz (talk) 19:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

  I take your point there, even though it is considered highly inaccurate to use the term Great Britain to refer to the entirety of the UK (and as someone from Northern Ireland I should know), but in the case of the terms United Kingdom and Great Britain both names have been significantly established already (Google searches for both terms return 1.8 billion and 226 million results respectively), whereas Czechia is still a relatively new term. Yes it is growing, as I have already stated before, and it may reach a point where it becomes the more prominent term or at least where it is on part, but we're not there yet, and through WP:COMMONNAME "Czech Republic" is still the term we should continue to use within the article titles, caveating this with a mention of Czechia within the lead for 2023 and future participations where the country is referred to as Czechia (which is what I already put in the alternative proposal below.) Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:04, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

  But the Team Great Britain represents the whole United Kingdom. Martin Tauchman (talk) 20:06, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Our article is entitled Czech Republic and that is the common name in English-language sources. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:27, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Alternative option

Leave article name as is but change clickable links - like so: [[Czech Republic in the Eurovision Song Contest|Czechia]] Chrz (talk) 22:02, 12 February 2023 (UTC) EDIT: Clarification - it also means Czechia in infobox and navboxes.Chrz (talk) 18:42, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

• Mostly Support From my point of view, given that the name 'Czechia' is used in contexts such as the European Union (EU), United Nations (UN) and other major international organisations, I think it is appropriate to give this nomenclature a chance in a context such as the ESC, as it too is an event of international significance that reflects the legal and historical evolution of countries (see the case of Turkey now Türkiye) -- Dominikcapuan (talk) 23:53, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
• Support only for the contests where the country is actually represented as "Czechia" (in the same way that we only use "North Macedonia" for editions since 2019). ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 15:41, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

  Macedonia way would mean renaming general Czech Republic in the Eurovision Song Contest and then Czech Republic in the Eurovision Song Contest 2023+. Chrz (talk) 17:02, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, the two situations are not entirely analogous because with North Macedonia the new name has been widely adopted. That matters for article titles, but I don't think that matters as much for what words we use in article text. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 17:45, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

  I proposed this solution because something similar already works for recent hockey championship articles. Chrz (talk) 18:52, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

  Might be worth also mentioning that a country changing its official name is different than a preference to use a specific variant of a current name. Grk1011 (talk) 18:27, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

  It's also worth noting that Czechia has been an official short name of the country in English since the 1990s, but has only in the last few years been pushed into the consciousness of English speakers through the Czech government. So the situation is not analogous with North Macedonia as that was an official name change, not just a switch from long- to short-name. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:34, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support with a reservation – it would be analogical to the case of ice hockey. But I think that renaming the article would be also a good vairant. --Martin Tauchman (talk) 21:12, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
• Tentatively support This is probably the least contentious solution, and seems to have some consensus elsewhere. Like Jochem I would only support this for cases where the EBU referred to the country as Czechia (so for 2023 onwards) without changing article titles. I think this situation currently differs from the Macedonia issue as that was a lot more contentious and required a Wikipedia-wide naming convention which currently doesn't exist for Czech Republic/Czechia; if this were to change in future then obviously we would have to align, but for now this could work. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 19:36, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 22 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Those in support of the move were unable to generate sufficient consensus for the move. In my reading of the discussion, the WP:COMMONNAME argument for "Czechia" was not strong enough to justify the move. (non-admin closure) Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 17:36, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

---

• Czech Republic in the Eurovision Song Contest → Czechia in the Eurovision Song Contest
• Czech Republic in the Eurovision Song Contest 2023 → Czechia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2023

– I'm hesitant to open a move request so soon after the previous one. I do think that it was premature, however, as it took place before the contest and it was therefore impossible to assess whether "Czechia" would be used as the WP:COMMONNAME. The issue of the COMMONNAME was the deciding factor in the original closing summary, which I'll quote here for convenience:

"Those in opposition [...] claimed that in relation to Eurovision "Czech Republic" remains the WP:COMMONNAME. As this claim was made without evidence it was a weak argument but as those in support of this move did not reject the claim I find it sufficiently convincing to establish a consensus against this move. However, should there be evidence now or in the future that in relation to Eurovision "Czechia" is the common name then a new move request would be appropriate and likely to find consensus."

Now that the 2023 contest has concluded we can assess what the COMMONNAME was. Evidence that "Czechia" has become the common name in relation to Eurovision can be seen in reporting by the BBC, Independent, the Telegraph, Euronews, and the Liverpool Echo (the city's local paper). Reuters and the Guardian have used both "Czechia" and "Czech Republic" in 2023, and Al Jazeera and the Times used "Czech Republic". The EBU/Eurovision itself uses Czechia, of course.

Again, I appreciate that a second request soon after the first is likely to cause a certain amount of fatigue. I do think that there's been a marked shift toward "Czechia" in English-language media in the context of Eurovision, however, which we should discuss sooner rather than later. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:40, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. This is a bit of a hot topic right now. I would recommend waiting until the outcome of the move discussion at Talk:Czech Republic. Similar to WP:FYROM from years back, there is a bit of a context issue at play. In terms of Eurovision, maybe Czechia is the new common name, but also here on Wikipedia, sometimes the common name for an event doesn't override general naming conventions ('overall' common name). Grk1011 (talk) 12:57, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

  Ah, I didn't realise that there was still a lot of discussion going on at Czech Republic, as I was considering Eurovision in isolation. I'm not eager for another drawn-out debate here, but regardless of the move outcome it seems worthwhile to consider how things have shifted after the contest.

  In hindsight a simple discussion here could have worked, but a discussion about opening a move request feels a little redundant. A.D.Hope (talk) 13:55, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

• I would tend to agree with Grk1011 that there is a lot of moving parts to this on a whole within Wikipedia. I would tentatively support a move of this article and articles from 2023 onwards to Czechia, however I also believe we should keep as consistent as possible with the wider norms on Wikipedia. If there is no movement on a article name change front, then potentially we can revisit the alternative proposal listed in the previous move request to change the clickable links to "Czechia" but leave the article titles as "Czech Republic". Sims2aholic8 (talk) 13:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose for now - I think it's best to keep this article consistent with Czech Republic, though I would support a move to Czechia there this is not the place to discuss that. estar8806 (talk) ★ 14:03, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Wasn't it already established in the previous RM that it doensn't have to be consistent with everything everywhere? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 14:53, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Just because it doesn't have to be doesn't mean it can't be or shouldn't be. I can't find any article using Czechia as a title, so clearly if the previous RM established that it hasn't been applied. estar8806 (talk) ★ 15:14, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Not for Czechia as far as I know, but there is for example Chinese Taipei national football team vs Taiwan. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 16:00, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Chinese Taipei though is a rather special case, based more on international diplomacy where China (i.e. the People's Republic of China) refused to allow the use of the name "China" by other entities, including Taiwan (i.e. the Republic of China). Czechia and Czech Republic however are simply different names for the same country, and it comes down more to WP:COMMONNAME than a specific agreement to use one name over the other for international organisations and tournaments. Additionally, Chinese Taipei national football team is the official title of the team, whereas Football in Taiwan, which is about the sport in general within the country, follows the common title for other articles related to Taiwan. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:10, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I believe WP:CONPRIME would apply, no? As the primary topic (i.e. the country itself) is currently Czech Republic and not Czechia, then subtopics should follow this determination. I'm not sure however if Eurovision articles are that closely linked to the country itself for CONPRIME to actually be applicable here, but it seems to me on the surface that it does, and as Estar8806 points out there are presently no articles within the English Wikipedia that contain Czechia within the title (excluding redirects). Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:33, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

That part of the essay is about what to do if multiple things go by the same name, not if one thing goes by multiple names. I think what you meant to link to is the one below it, WP:CONSUB. But that section already mentions that there can be exceptions to the "rule". ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 16:08, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Good point, yes WP:CONSUB is more applicable here. Regarding the exception that is listed there however, I'm not sure if that is applicable here, as it sounds more like for when there is a full change of name for a location, rather than in this case where two equally applicable forms of name for the same location can be used interchangeably. I'm not saying there shouldn't be an exception here given the growing case for Czechia over the Czech Republic within Eurovision and overall in the wider world, and I expect the momentum towards renaming Czech Republic will continue to grow and the name change will success (especially given the 2024 Summer Olympics are right around the corner), but I'm more testing the limits of what policies or guidelines are out there. WP:TITLECON itself is not a policy of course, but it obviously feeds into WP:TITLE, which is. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:19, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Re consistency: To achieve this, Wikipedia had to split Czechia into two unrelated countries - Czech Republic and Czech lands. See also RM on Talk:History of the Czech lands where it was requested History of the Czech Republic, and failed.

So, request move to in Czech Republic - fail.

Request move to Czechia - fail.

It seems that the only thing valued now is the status quo, the calm before the storm, fragile balance, no willingness to make the first step. But context-commonname is a possibility how to slowly allow what is due without breaking consistency... much. Chrz (talk) 16:48, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support - per the fact that Czechia is the name used for the countries participation in ESC. BabbaQ (talk) 20:20, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
• If the Czech Republic article gets moved (RM ongoing) then this should follow suit, If that doesn't get moved then neither should this article - Everything should remain consistent. –Davey2010^Talk 15:37, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

  • Oppose - The Czech Republic RM has since been closed as no consensus[1] so I therefore see no reason to move this again as per CONSISTENCY.

  –Davey2010^Talk 17:23, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. Per Davey2010; as soon as the Czech Republic moves, the move is possible. But not until then. FromCzech (talk) 05:31, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Imagine this scenario: Czechia is moved. Then this article is proposed and would you support it or would it be like:

"No, do not move, it does not have to be consistent, see this and this example of a country where it is not. And this and this competition has not changed it yet so we do not have to either. Do not create illusion of unity where sources are not consistent, it is context related common name, do not confuse reader with a name which is not common in this and that context."

Or not? Is it really "use everywhere or nowhere", disregarding more complex situation in the sources? Chrz (talk) 06:26, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Wait for now. Until Czech Republic is moved our hands are tied. doktorb _words^deeds 07:44, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Don't think so. As in the case of the United Kingdom and Great Britain. Or Taiwan and Chinese Taipei. Martin Tauchman (talk) 00:42, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I believe that unification is not always achieved for several countries, examples were presented. For instance, in one case of a Wikipedia article, "Czech lands" is used instead of the Czech Republic and the RM was unsuccessful. Although it is more of an exception than the rule, it shows that hands are partially loose. Chrz (talk) 07:42, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support – Used by Eurovision itself and mentioned in other sources in the context of the contest. It is the ‘common name’ in this case. The Czech Republic/Czechia discussion has shown that both names could occur in an article's title. Even BBC presents both names. As well as Radio Prague International or Daily Mail. The name ‘Czechia’ was also used by the Guardian, the Sun, ABC, the Irish Times, the Independent, the Telegraph, and Sydney Morning Herald. (The last one mentioned that the country competed as the Czech Republic before.) I would like to mention the United Kingdom that competes as Great Britain at the Olympics. So there is no problem having the article called Czech Republic and this article called Czechia in the Eurovision Song Contest. Therefore I fully support the change of the article's name. --Martin Tauchman (talk) 23:59, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. The Czech Republic RM has been closed as not moved. There is no reason for this one to deviate from that.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  There is a reason. In the context of Eurovision, the name Czechia is more widely used in sources. And we do have articles about countries with a different title than in the case of international events. Like the United Kingdom in the article's title and Great Britain in the title about Olympics or other sports events. Similartly sports teams – like Great Britain men's national ice hockey team. Martin Tauchman (talk) 14:45, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  Ignored, completely ignored. Chrz (talk) 16:39, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  Still talking about consistency, completely ignoring this point and examples. Why? Chrz (talk) 17:29, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  'Agree. We are unable to budge from wider Wikipedia policy. Czech Republic stays just as "Ivory Coast" stays. doktorb _words^deeds 15:44, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

May discussion closing

I don't think that it was a good idea to close it. It was closed just 7 minutes after the last comment (written by @Chrz:). (Even the template says that it may be closed ‘if consensus has been reached’) I have discussed it on the @CapnJackSp:'s talkpage and I cannot say that I am satisfied with his answers. He came with an argument that I haven't provided evidence that the name Czechia is used in general (I don't know why he did not write it in the discussion here). From my point of view, I don't have to because of WP:NAMECHANGES policy that says:‘Sometimes the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give far more weight to independent, reliable English-language sources ("reliable sources") written after the name change. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match…’ Eurovision uses the name Czechia since the beginning of 2023. Mr Sparrow has also mentioned the problem with WP:CONSUB. I don't see it as a big problem when we have North Macedonia at the Olympics but Macedonia at the 2000 Summer Olympics. So it seems that in the reality of Wikipedia, WP:NAMECHANGES is higher in the rules hierarchy than WP:CONSUB. Martin Tauchman (talk) 12:00, 30 May 2023 (UTC)