Talk:DSCH motif
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Piano Sonata No.2 is not an example of DSCH motif?
editThe main subject on the 3rd movement is: F, B, B, D, D, E♭, D, C♯, B... That is C♯ but not C♮, and seems failed to meet the requirement of DSCH motif. Thought it appears once at mm 16-17, it can only regarded as a variation dereived from the main subject and shows no dominant function compare with other pieces. --Foamposite (talk) 11:00, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
DSCH in Britten's "Rape of Lucretia"??
editDid Britten explicitly add the motif (actually a F#-B-D-C#-A#-B-F# motif) as a reference to Shostakovich (if so, why?), or is this just coincidence? If the latter is the case, I don't know if it belongs here, furthermore given that is has neither the intervallic structure, nor the pitches of the DSCH motif... -- megA (talk) 14:54, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
- Britten and Shostakovich were good friends and great admirers of each other's music. Each dedicated compositions to the other, and they made deliberate use of motifs from each other's work. Any good biography of either man includes this information, and a selection of their correspondence was published in the January 2015 issue of the DSCH Journal. Perodicticus (talk) 09:57, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- All of this is perfectly true, though the two composers did not meet until long after the composition and premiere of Rape of Lucretia. It does not have any bearing on MegA's criticism, however. The intervals do not match, and the actual note names are missing. While we are on the subject, it is also claimed that Rejoice in the Lamb uses this motive as an homage to Shostakovich. However, as far as I can tell, Shostakovich himself only used it unambiguously for the first time in the Eighth Symphony, which was only first performed in November 1943, by which time Britten had completed Rejoice in the Lamb. Shostakovich's symphony was not an initial success and, though the score reached the west in 1944, it does not appear to have been been heard outside of the USSR until after the war. Is there any evidence that Britten and Shostakovich exchanged correspondence in the early 1940s and, if so, did Shostakovich inform Britten of his intention to use DSCH in his new symphony? If not, then the occurrence in Rejoice in the Lamb is probably coincidental, as well.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:04, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- It seems from the comments above that at the time he composed these pieces, Britten had not met Shostakovich, had no particular reason to refer to him, and would not have known the significance of the DSCH figure. Furthermore, it seems that the figure does not occur in one of the cited pieces.
- I have just removed a Mozart string quartet from the list of examples. I am inclined to remove the Britten pieces as well, since their relevance seems just as tenuous (at least the Mozart example did include the figure in question).
- A possibility is to include a paragraph acknowledging that the figure has been used by chance by composers who predated, or intended no reference to, Shostakovich, and that there are some contemporary cases where a composer's intention is open to doubt. I don't think that such a paragraph is at all necessary myself, but the option is there. JBritnell (talk) 05:09, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
- All of this is perfectly true, though the two composers did not meet until long after the composition and premiere of Rape of Lucretia. It does not have any bearing on MegA's criticism, however. The intervals do not match, and the actual note names are missing. While we are on the subject, it is also claimed that Rejoice in the Lamb uses this motive as an homage to Shostakovich. However, as far as I can tell, Shostakovich himself only used it unambiguously for the first time in the Eighth Symphony, which was only first performed in November 1943, by which time Britten had completed Rejoice in the Lamb. Shostakovich's symphony was not an initial success and, though the score reached the west in 1944, it does not appear to have been been heard outside of the USSR until after the war. Is there any evidence that Britten and Shostakovich exchanged correspondence in the early 1940s and, if so, did Shostakovich inform Britten of his intention to use DSCH in his new symphony? If not, then the occurrence in Rejoice in the Lamb is probably coincidental, as well.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:04, 9 May 2015 (UTC)