Talk:Dafydd ap Gruffudd

Comments

a phonetic transcription of Welsh names would be very nice to have!

Isn't holocaust a bit of a strong word for the end of the article?

This statement is incorrect and the link is most certainly incorrect:

"Dafydd ap Gruffudd married (sometime after 1265) Elizabeth de Ferrers, daughter of Robert Ferrers, earl of Derby. Elizabeth was the widow of William Marshal."

THE William Marhsal died in 1219 and was married to Isabel de Clare. His son, another William Marshal, was married at the time of his death in 1231 to King John's daughter, Eleanor Plantagenet, who later married Simon Montfort.

Deleted "Elizabeth was the widow of William Marshal" and incorrect link.

• Elizabeth de Ferrers was the widow of William Marshal, 2nd baron, who died sometime shortly before 1265. (Do not confuse with William Marshal who died 1219)

The manor of Folesham, Norfolk came into Dafydd ap Gruffudd's possesion through this marriage and he exchanged it with John Marshal for the manor of Norton, Northampton. (see Littere Wallie 139-140, 142-3). BrynLlywelyn 04:21, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Is he at all celebrated as a national hero in Wales today? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.162.94.173 (talk) 06:03, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Dafydd was pronounced DAH-viTH, with the TH sounding like the TH in rather. Gruffudd is pronounced and spelled Griffith. --174.89.26.135 (talk) 20:04, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Rubbish in this article

No mention of his role in the first Welsh war, also some nonsense about a trap for Lllwellyn the last. It was the battle of Irfon bridge. CJ DUB 14:55, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

If you know this to be true, and have a reference for it, add it to the article. If there is "rubbish," as you call it, in the article, remove it. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 19:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Name

It seems to me that, if DaG's father was named "Gruffudd", and his brother's surname was "ap Gruffudd", then DaG's surname should be listed as "ap Gruffudd" first, with "ap Gruffydd" given as a variant. Sectori (talk) 11:59, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

If that was the case then all Welshmen in the Middle Ages would be listed under "A" as each used ap or ab followed by their patronymic as their last name. Such a system would not only go against standard literary practice, it would also require renaming every article about any Welshman of that time and it would also be totally ridiculous; a researcher wishing to find out about Llywelyn the Last would need to know the man's father to find him. Welsh lords, princes and kings were invariably known by their first names, in the same way that other monarchs do and thus they should be listed by their first name first James Frankcom (talk) 20:09, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

"last free Welsh ruler of Wales"

What about Lloyd George? Removed. --Joey Roe 17:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Dafydd's DOB

To explain: Ralph Maud's article is responsible for the notion that Dafydd was born on 11 July 1238 (Maud, Ralph. 'David, the last Prince of Wales : the ten 'lost' months of Welsh history'. Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion (1968), 43-62), based on the assumption that the charter of 11 July 1252 was issued on his fourteenth birthday. It is not a bad bet, but it is hardly proven! Ynyrhesolaf (talk) 19:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Execution

I have come across what may be the actual words of the judge:

he [Dafydd ap Gruffydd] was tried for treason in Shrewsbury and sentenced 'to be drawn to the gallows as a traitor to the king who made him a knight, to be hanged as the murderer of the gentleman taken in the Castle of Hawarden, to have his limbs burnt because he had profaned by assassination the solemnity of Christ's passion, and to have his quarters dispersed through the country because he had in different places compassed the death of his lord the king'.

- Cawthorne, Nigel (2006). "5 Hanging, Drawing and Quartering". Public Executions. London: Capella. p. 100. ISBN 1-84193-417-8.

Not sure if this quote belongs here, or in Hanged, drawn and quartered. --Redrose64 (talk) 08:49, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

'... basely betrayed him'?

AD Carr notes that the two churchmen supposedly implicated in Dafydd's capture protested their innocence (Welsh History Review 19:3 (1999)). The source quoted here is therefore incorrect in that respect. Also, the ref for Dafydd's hiding-place is not given. What is its source, aside from the unscholarly website given in the footnote? If that is the only source, it should surely be removed as OR. Ynyrhesolaf (talk) 23:53, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Six illegitimate daughters

The text mentions them, but not the section concerned with issue. Is their fate known? --NellieBly (talk) 22:17, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

His mother's name?

Sesena or Serena?

Ståle (talk) 08:33, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Selected anniversaries - Main page

Hi, just highlighting that if the yellow tagged issue with the references can be resolved, this article would be eligible for the selected anniversaries October 3, which features on the main page. Whizz40 (talk) 19:45, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Gruffydd/Gruffudd

The family spelling of Gruffudd was first named to describe the Welsh medieval name of Griffith(s). Then Gruffudd was adapted to Gruffydd in more modern times with both names still in use. However, because Dafydd III was an medieval noble, and historians first quoted him as being Gruffudd approximately around the 19th century, it only makes sense to keep an average between the naming of his immediate family, being himself Dafydd ap Gruffudd & Owain Goch ap Gruffudd, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, Rhodri ap Gruffudd & his father Gruffudd ap Llywelyn Fawr. Therefore Dafydd ap Gruffydd was moved to Dafydd ap Gruffudd. Cltjames (talk) 00:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

This needs more thought. The primary spelling we will use will follow WP:COMMONNAME, and is this dictated by sources. I haven't done a thorough review, but a cursory look suggests to me that Dafydd ap Gruffydd is significantly more common than Dafydd ap Gruffudd. The argument to reconcile this with Llywelyn ap Gruffudd is a good one, but a quick review suggests to me that Llywelyn ap Gruffydd is three times more common than Llywelyn ap Gruffudd. So the rename discussion may be at the wrong page. Just one example, see page 225 of:

• Skinner, Patricia (7 February 2018). The Welsh and the Medieval World: Travel, Migration and Exile. University of Wales Press. ISBN 978-1-78683-190-3.

Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

@Sirfurboy OK, well. I felt the logic of using primary/secondary sources from the 19th century onwards made sense because that was the original interpretation. But if it's more complicated than that, then I would'nt know. But, really there should be an industry standard, and like you said it needs to be reinforced correctly. Cltjames (talk) 17:56, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

@Cltjames and Sirfurboy: Ngrams show Dafydd ap Gruffudd in the lead over Dafydd ap Gruffydd from 1987, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd in the lead over Llywelyn ap Gruffydd from 1988 and, for their father, Gruffudd ap Llywelyn in the lead over Gruffydd ap Llywelyn from 1982. I think standardisation of these princes' names is moving in favour of "Gruffudd". Their Oxford Dictionary of National Biography entries, published in 2004, use that spelling (whereas their Dictionary of Welsh Biography ones, from 1959, have "Gruffydd"). Sirfurboy, what did you base your figure of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd being three times more common than Llywelyn ap Gruffudd on? Ham II (talk) 11:12, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

The three times figure was based on a review of my bookshelves. As I said, I haven't done a thorough review. The review in both cases was cursory, and the comment was a caution. Based on the ngrams analysis, and the fact that I concur that newer volumes do appear to favour Gruffudd, I would be content for a move to Gruffudd. We might still want to make this an RM though, to ensure enough editors see this to confirm the consensus. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:21, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks; I think an RM is technically necessary anyway because Dafydd ap Gruffudd is currently a redirect. Dafydd ap Gruffydd (poet) adds a bit of complication, if not to the question of this article's title because the prince is clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. A hatnote at this article might have to read "Dafydd ap Gruffydd" redirects here. For the poet, see Dafydd ap Gruffydd (poet). Ham II (talk) 11:47, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I expect that is the best solution, yes. Better than a tiny DAB. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:23, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

@Sirfurboy I have mixed spellings in the books I've read. But I feel the choice of the original spelling based on the fact that it's a historical naming makes more sense in terms of logic. But I would also favour a dictionary because of its formality. The question I posed was an observation, and to look at the articles, on average, they use the 'u' spelling, so I'm happy to go with that on average, although there isn't an industry standard, it does make sense to keep an average that holds up its historical value. Cltjames (talk) 11:47, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Close Paraphrase?

There appears to be close paraphrasing with this: [1]. However I have not marked it up as I cannot rule out citogenesis. They do not credit Wikipedia and claim copyright, but WayBack Machine only shows versions of their page back to 2014, when much of our text was also established. I was quite suspicious, however, of the lack of sourcing here and the source that was simply cited to CPR and CCR without anything in the bibliography. Flagging the issue here for editor review. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

It might by citogenesis. I took a couple of the most blatant examples from an Earwig compare of the article and the website[2] to see how they were added to the article:

• Website: "was joined by royal refugees from Powys, Fadog and Deheubarth, including Rhys Wyndod, Rhys Ieuanc and the sons of Maredudd ab Owain...With the limited resources Dafydd could call upon, the passes leading to Dolwyddelan became indefensible and he moved down to the fortress of Castell y Bere."

Article: "was supported by various royal refugees from Powys Fadog and Deheubarth; including Rhys Wyndod, Rhys Ieuanc and the sons of Maredudd ab Owain. With limited resources of manpower and equipment available the passes leading to Dolwyddelan became indefensible and Dafydd moved down to Castell y Bere".

- added to the article here by User:Aetheling1125 in 2010.

• Website: "Dafydd, however, escaped and moved north to the stronghold of Dolbadarn Castle, in the Peris Valley at the foot of Mount Snowdon. In May 1283, he moved to the mountains above the Welsh royal palace at Abergwyngregyn."

Article: "Dafydd, escaped and moved north to Dolbadarn Castle, a guardpost in the Peris Valley at the foot of Snowdon. In May 1283 he was forced to move again, this time to the mountains above the Welsh royal home Garth Celyn."

- added to the article here by User:BrynLlywellyn in 2006. Then "Garth Celyn" was changed to "Abergwyngregyn" by User:Civis Romanus in 2010 here.

Given that the "copying" was by 3 different editors at different times it seems more likely that the article is the source and the website the copy - unless they were all plundering the same website, which might be a possibility I suppose. DeCausa (talk) 15:14, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, I think that allays the fears. That site would therefore be using the material outside of the license. Hardly the first time, I'm sure. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the relevant page histories, I'd personally guess that User:BrynLlywellyn at least was also the (or an) author of the website in question, and simply put their own unsourced wording into both, quite possibly at approximately the same time. I therefore agree that we don't need to spend any more time on copyright issues, but we still need to decide what to do with unsourced, albeit perfectly plausible, comments. Can anyone find a better reference for these details? Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Cltjames has actually already addressed a lot of it (with thanks) after I added citation needed templates. Some of these were filled with the book Twenty-One Welsh Princes (Turvey, 2010). I borrowed that book from the library and verified the sourcing in those, so I am happy that the sourcing checks out. Turvey, of course, has written a more academic volume, The Welsh Princes: The Native Rulers of Wales 1063-1283 (Turvey, 2014). Being a historian, the shorter work should be reliable. Are there any sections that still need sourcing? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 3 November 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerium (talk) 11:34, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

---

Dafydd ap Gruffydd → Dafydd ap Gruffudd – Ngrams suggest that the proposed spelling has been the one most commonly used since 1987. This spelling would be WP:CONSISTENT with the article titles for his brother Llywelyn ap Gruffudd and (especially relevant in a patronymic naming system) their father Gruffudd ap Llywelyn ab Iorwerth. The same trend can be seen in the ngrams for both the brother's name (Llywelyn ap Gruffudd is the more common spelling from 1988) and the father's (Gruffudd ap Llywelyn is the more common spelling from 1982).

The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography entries for all three (published in 2004, with revisions for Llywelyn in 2008 and Dafydd in 2023) spell Gruffudd with a second U rather than a Y. The Dictionary of Welsh Biography entries for the three spell the name with a Y, but they are from 1959. The ngrams suggest that there has been a movement towards favouring the spelling Gruffudd for decades. Ham II (talk) 11:03, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes move; I came up with the idea for consistency after noticing the family Gruffudd ap Llywelyn Fawr had a spelling discrepancy between the sons; Dafydd ap Gruffudd & Owain Goch ap Gruffudd, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, Rhodri ap Gruffudd. I agree with the move as we seem to have a consistency of using Gruffudd with a 'u' with most of the related articles, and not Gruffydd. Then, namely Gruffudd with a u was the original Welsh spelling of the modern name, and probably all documentation regarding the written name was consistent Gruffudd, until later years a century after the first writings about the medieval prince. So, it logically makes sense to go with the original spelling, especially considering it is a historical name from hundreds of years ago (Griffith[s]), thus best to use the older-original spelling. Cltjames (talk) 18:41, 03 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support - I concur that modern sources appear to have converged on this spelling. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:18, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom, apparent WP:COMMONNAME by ngrams and below, as well as the benefit of being more WP:CONSISTENT. Considering Dafydd ap Gruffydd (poet), most sources seems overwhemingly on this person rather than the poet so the results seems suitable, the proposed hatnote mentioned in a section above should be used. Scholar has 159 Y and 184 U, becoming 23 Y v 39 U since 2020, so seem to back up using a "u" over the "y" as it is the more used. DankJae 21:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.