Talk:Dai shogi

Early talk

I believe the names of the pieces, promotions, and movements have all been verified with Japanese Wikipedia. kwami 09:16, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

movements(Kr/Ph)

I believe that the kirin's move is ${\frac {1}{2}}$ the phoenix's move because kirin is colorbound. --Guocuozuoduo (talk) 23:57, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that the phoenix's advantage over the kirin should be quite a bit smaller, because (1) the example of the bishop shows that colourbounding is not so important when it confines the piece to half the board, and (2) the kirin has the stronger promotion. Double sharp (talk) 12:14, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

P.S. on (2), it is true that the promotion prospects are not that great (even more so than in chu shogi, and also that the colourbounding does make promotion twice as difficult), that it is not very useful if you already have your original lion, and also that by the endgame (when promotion prospects really start to get high) the lion isn't really worth all that much anymore because there is not much to shoot (perform igui on) or use doublemove capture on. So I think they are still about equal in value, because the advantage of the stronger promotion is to my mind compensated by these disadvantages. I could well be wrong, but they do seem to be about equal in value in chu shogi. Double sharp (talk) 14:31, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

some minor points about the rules

We unfortunately cannot know many of the subtleties about the rules because we have no surviving records of dai shogi problems or games. Nevertheless, the most plausible reconstruction would follow chu shogi for these missing points. I may thus copy in some of these points about repetition, bare king, etc. from that article, of course noting that while these rules are likely, they are not proven. Double sharp (talk) 03:08, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

A memorial poem from Japanese Wikipedia on dai shogi

“ 本項で示す形の大将棋が文献に最初に現れるのは、1297年-1304年にかけて書かれたとされる「普通唱導集」とされる。ここには大将棋指しに対しての死後の追悼文に、

大将基 伏惟 々々々々

反車香車之破耳 退飛車而取勝

仲人嗔猪之合腹 昇桂馬而支得

という表現が見られる。この表現は130枚制大将棋の初期配置や駒の動きと矛盾せず、13世紀には大将棋があったものと強く推測される。

”

Double sharp (talk) 14:37, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Japanese Wikipedia also notes that some have proposed calling this game Kamakura dai shogi, to distinguish it from Heian dai shogi. Double sharp (talk) 14:48, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

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Disputed moves in the SRZ, based on ja.wp

Angry boar

• 『象戯図式』『諸象戯図式』ではこの動きであるが、『象棋六種之図式』の大将棋の解説では後ろの動きがなく、前と横に1マス動けるとなっている（泰将棋では縦横に1マス動けると記載されている）。

In the SZ and SSZ, this is a wazir; but it is only so in SRZ for tai shogi. In dai shogi it cannot move directly backwards.

Evil wolf

• 『象戯図式』および元禄九年版『諸象戯図式』では、斜め四方と前方に動けるとしている。これは銀将と同じ動きである。

In the SZ and SSZ, it moves as the silver general. In SRZ, it has the move given here.

Phoenix

• 『象棋六種之図式』（『雑藝叢書』収録のものによる）では大将棋に動きの説明があるが、斜めに2マス（飛び越えるという表現はない）、横に1マス（縦には動けない）動けるとなっている。

In the SRZ: one square sideways and two squares diagonally (no indication of jumping).

Kirin

• 『象棋六種之図式』（『雑藝叢書』収録のものによる）の大将棋の解説では、縦横に2マス（ただし右は1マスのみ印があり、駒を飛び越える表現はない）、斜めに1マス動けるとなっている。

No sign of a jump in the SRZ.

Double sharp (talk) 09:48, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

(These are just tidbits from clarifying Dai Dai. Maybe there are others. Seems that this indicates that the SRZ typically shows at least an early version that got changed later? Or maybe it's also full of errors, since the gold general(!) inexplicably has a changed move in Tai according to the SRZ.) Double sharp (talk) 09:48, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Mnemonic device piece set

Try to use the following mnemonic set for Shogi variant boards.

Here's what it will look like for Dai shogi.

Initial setup of Dai shogi. using mnemonic pieces.

301fieriw (talk) 15:57, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Relation between Dai and Chu shogi, piece promotions

While it is accepted that Chu shogi derived from Dai shogi, how can we explain the seemingly coincidental piece promotions (those appearing in Chu have the exact same promotions, while those unique to Dai all promote to gold general)? Japanese Wikipedia suggests that the original rules had a different set of promotions, but the popularity of Chu led to those promotions being "reimported" to Dai, and then the gold general was adapted for the remaining pieces as a placeholder, but gives no sources. OosakaNoOusama (talk) 00:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

@OosakaNoOusama: The Chess Variant Pages say this: It is intriguing that the eliminated pieces all promote to Tokin, while in Chu Shogi all pieces promote differently, and the Tokin only appears as promoted Pawn. This makes one wonder if there is not a form of 'back contamination' here. Like that originally in Dai Shogi all the generals promoted to Gold (as Silver and Knight do in Sho Shogi), and that after elimination of the weakest pieces to produce Chu Shogi, Copper, Silver, Gold and Leopard were still considered too insignificant, and were assigned new promotions to pieces in the initial setup that could not yet be promoted to. And that these promotions then later trickled back into Dai Shogi, when people got accustomed to them. This is pure speculation, however. Double sharp (talk) 09:15, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Japanese Wikipedia gives the following possibilities of “original” promotion rules (translations are my own):

1. 醉象→太子、麒麟→獅子、鳳凰→奔王の3駒のみが成りを持ち、その他の駒は成りを持たなかったとされる。(Only three pieces had promotions: Drunk Elephant → Crown Prince, Kirin → Lion, Phoenix → Free King, while all other pieces did not promote.)
   I was actually able to find a scan of the relevant pages of the mentioned 「象戯図」, showing the setup of Dai, as well as surrounding Chu and Daidai. Curiously, for both Chu and Daidai (and even Maka Daidai according to the commentary of that page, but no pictures were provided), after the initial setup, another setup is shown giving promoted pieces. However, for Dai, no such setup is shown, only with two lines:
   大象戯成馬[sic]　以上三枚
   酔象成太子　鳳凰成奔王　麒麟成師子[sic].
   I am uncertain whether we should take this literally, that “Dai has only these three promotions”.
   (Curiously, this source also gives different movements relative to this page for the Blind Tiger, being stripped of the ability to move directly left, as well for the Angry Boar, stripped of the ability to move backward. As well as a different set of promotions for Daidai, but that would be off-topic.)
2. このほか、以上の3駒以外については、獅子・奔王・龍王・龍馬など、金将に成ってしまうとデメリットしかない駒は成りを持たず、その他の全ての駒は金将に成ったという説もある (In addition, besides the three pieces mentioned above, there is also the speculation that every other piece promoted to Gold, except for the pieces which would only be disadvantaged upon promotion to Gold (such as Lion, Free King, Dragon King, Dragon Horse).)
   This has no source given.

OosakaNoOusama (talk) 23:57, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

On another note, rule 1 above reminds me of Daidai shogi, where a lot of pieces didn't promote (even the pawn or lance), as well as Tai shogi according to the Shogi Variants software. On the other hand, rule 2 reminds me of Maka Daidai (where a lot of pieces promoted to gold, and only the Dragon King, Dragon Horse and Free King didn't promote), as well as Tai according to Japanese Wikipedia. There could perhaps be some parallels drawn from those games. OosakaNoOusama (talk) 21:12, 27 September 2023 (UTC)