Talk:Dalton Castle (wrestler)

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Deletion

• 19:23, 24 April 2011 Joe Decker (talk | contribs) deleted page Talk:Aden Chambers (G8: Talk page of a deleted page)
• 19:23, 24 April 2011 Joe Decker (talk | contribs) deleted page Aden Chambers (WP:BLPPROD: Nominated for ten days with no sources present in the article)
• 07:10, 26 October 2006 Srikeit (talk | contribs) deleted page Aden Chambers (expired prod)

It appears that when this was up in previous years there was no sources provided. This wrestler is rising in popularity in RoH and there are now sources.

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

I have included some. This could possible be moved to Ashley Remington or Dalton Castle (wrestler) in the future. Ranze (talk) 00:36, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Middle name

On the 4 July 2015 episode of RoH during the match with Watanabe, the announcers call him "the one and only party peacock Dalton Castle" but closed captions for the show say "the one and only Dalton P. Castle". This may indicate to deaf viewers that his middle name is Peacock or something. 174.92.134.248 (talk) 19:41, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Removed info

Regarding Special:Diff/676858223 could @HHH Pedrigree: please, if they are going to make unexplained undiscussed removals of info from the article, please copy the information to the talk page so that it can be weighed here? ACH is not the only notable match in ROH, seems like a skewed focus. 64.228.91.102 (talk) 15:12, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't a list of random matches. Looks like all the matches were house shows or TV matches. We don't put weekly matches (except notable ones) Right now, Chambers most notable matches were against Silas Young. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:23, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

@HHH Pedrigree: The matches were not random but rather, mention was made of notable wrestlers he faced, ones with their own articles. At the very least we should list those who he defeated. I can understand removing the one of those he lost to in non-title non-PPV matches, but in that case please put the data on the talk, don't just remove it. If you don't think it is notable then I think you should go through a tagging process and reach consensus on that.

Was his championship match against Jay Lethal also just 'random' because it happened on TV? Was his match against NJPW legend Jushin Liger random? You removed both. RoH does some PPV-type stuff on their TV. Showing who he beat establishes him as being above jobber level. 64.228.91.102 (talk) 16:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

The text "He has wrestled but lost to ACH (wrestler), Adam Cole,[7] Ashley Sixx, Jay Lethal,[8] Jushin Thunder Liger,[9] Michael Bennett, Michael Elgin, Moose (wrestler) and Roderick Strong.[10] He has managed to beat the team of Austin Aries, Jay Lethal and Moose with the team of Jay Briscoe and Kyle O'Reilly.[11]

He has wrestled and defeated Donovan Dijak,[12] Romantic Touch, Silas Young (twice)[13] and Takaaki Watanabe.[14]" I saw the text and I didn't find anything, only a list of wrestlers he faced, no less no more. TV, house shows, PPV? The text didn't explain. I don't know he faced Lethal for the championship. The project said we can't include weekly matches, only the important ones. If Chamber faced Strong in a TV show, isn't notable. If Chambers faced Cole in a PPV, it notable. You can include them again, but please, explain the context and use sources. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 00:27, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Possible moves

Should we nominate to move to Ashley Remington or Dalton Castle (wrestler)?

Although IMDB and proWrestling.Wikia list Aden Chambers as his name I am wondering if we can find any reliable sources that also do this.

Reason of confusion is CageMatch has separate pages for Aden (saying born 1983) and Ashley/Dalton (saying born 1986) so now I am wondering if they are same or different people. Aden photos from 2008 and Dalton photos from 2015 look different, but aging and facial hair can account for it, so I still think they could plausibly be the same person with misreported birth dates.

If they are not the same then I think we should question if Aden is actually Dalton's name. If not, a page move to Ashley would make sense. 64.228.91.102 (talk) 10:13, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, you can try. He recieved more exposure in ROH than CHIKARA. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:55, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

@HHH Pedrigree: thanks for the move, it makes sense until we can get source to confirm. In fact, I think we should stay here even if it is his real name since there is another wrestler who uses Aden Chambers and Dalton isn't known by the name. A future move would onl6 make sense if he moved to WWE under a new alias and became more famous (here's hoping)

As far back as I can trace the Aden/Dalton is http://prowrestling.wikia.com/wiki/?oldid=372950 where 24 November 2013 the wikia page creator said it was his name. They created wikia:c:prowrestling:Aden Chambers the same day, so they seemed aware of them being different people but still insisted Dalton shared the name. Oddly no link from Aden's article to Dalton's to disambig though. Makes me wonder if they were copying the page and changing stuff and forgot to remove it. No source given, only link was CageMatch which did not include the info. No idea when it got added to IMDB. 64.228.91.102 (talk) 13:19, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

First, take a look on the project Reliable sources. A wikia ins't reliable.

Arguing a straw man here, I never said it was reliable, I'm saying that's as far back as I could trace the idea. Meaning it either originated there or else whatever influenced it was information prior to that. It not being reliable is exactly why I proposed we move the page to DC (wrestler). 64.228.91.102 (talk) 14:01, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

2008 debut

This is repeated by ROH in his stats card but is kind of confusing since we only have records going back as far as 2009.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=11852&page=4&s=100 shows earliest being 2 August 2009 (as Dalton Castle) defeating Marc Krieger in Empire State Wrestling at "ESW Bodyslams & BBQ’s" @ "The Meeting Place" in Niagara Falls, New York, USA.

So we somehow need to find a match 9 months earlier than this to confirm ROH's 2008 claim. Possibly he wrestled a match under a name other than Dalton Castle and this is why it hasn't been associated? 64.228.91.102 (talk) 13:32, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, Cagematch works as a contributed website. Maybe nobody warned them about Castle first event. However, we should put 2008 as his debut. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 00:32, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm listing both, ROH claiming a debut year doesn't necessarily mean it's the truth, WWE could claim Taker debuted in 1783 if they wanted to. 64.228.91.102 (talk) 14:00, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Someone removed the 2009 alternative, so I have tagged it as dubious and linked it to this section. If Dalton really did debut in 2008 then there must be some event associated with that for us to uncover to support ROH's allegation.

Otherwise, I could be Vince and say Undertaker debuted in 1789 in Death Valley where he attained immortality and has been wrestling in taverns since, riding a flaming horse. 64.228.91.102 (talk) 15:57, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

• Dubious? Just because no one has found documentation where he wrestled prior to his first known result does not mean that is "mysterious", maybe he worked one matche for some local poduk fed with no coverage in 2008, or under a mask or something else, just because it is not on Cagematch is not an indicator of it not happening they have plenty of stuff that is not listed, it is not a complete record of everything that has happened in wrestling. Is it really something that is worth lying about by roh? And you know the Undertaker never existed before the 1990 Survivor Series :-) all I an saying is that going all Scooby Doo mystery is an over reaction.  MPJ-US  22:06, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Cagematch says his "Beginning of in-ring career: 2008". Also, ROH website is a reliable source. No dubious. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 12:02, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Cagematch is probably putting faith in the on-screen ROH claims about his debut, they don't have a match, I found one a couple weeks earlier than CM had recorded but still not old enough. How is ROH reliable? WWE.com calls Kane a "demon" and Undertaker a "dead man", that doesn't make it a reliable source for Kane being a monster and Taker being a zombie, so why would ROH be any more reliable in regard to claims we cannot confirm with real evidence? We need to dig into Next Era Wrestling to find it, most likely. 64.228.90.87 (talk) 19:49, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Birth year

His radio station supports March 4 but I am hoping we can find something better than CageMatch to support a 1986 birth year. Who knows where those folks get their info. 64.228.91.102 (talk) 16:00, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 21 September 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Not his common name. Jenks24 (talk) 15:54, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

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Dalton Castle (wrestler) → Dalton Caroline Castle – per https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fht3c-xcFdc&index=2&list=PLa8tfNTQY8q6KBvmuPkCYJqY-ZCrIidQu&t=1m19s his middle name is revealed by his uncle Lester's lawyer in part 2 of his "Rough Waters" transition into Ashley Remington in Chikara. While both WRESTLER and CAROLINE are 8 letters, we save 2 characters from not needing to use parenthesis. His middle name serves as a WP:NATDAB from the castle. 64.228.91.102 (talk) 16:41, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Oppose per COMMONNAME. He performs as Dalton Castle, not as Dalton Caroline Castle. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:58, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Poll

I noticed this was removed, with the editor saying it was false:

Castle was also voted "Sexiest Foreign Wrestler" in a September 2015 online poll conducted among professional wrestling fans in Northern Ontario with 63 percent of the vote, beating out John Cena (16 percent) and Beerzerker Kevin Tierney (12 percent) and several others.

It was unreferenced so we should source it before restoring, but I think we ought to have requested citation for it and given people a chance to look before removing it immediately.

In particular we would need to know who held the poll and how it was listed to fans in Northern Ontario, could we ask the editor who added it? 64.228.90.87 (talk) 22:32, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Brett

Noticed Special:Diff/682137791 inserted this as birth name but did not supply reference to support. Came across http://www.armdrag.com/archives/2004/greece_athena.htm which specifies him as a 2004 County Champ coached by Frank Vito. From this image I find it hard to tell whether or not.

Although the "Greece Athena Trojans" thing had me thinking "wut, Europe?" this is actually Greece Athena High School in Rochester NY.

Both of these seem to match up with the "emcee for 94.1 WZNE in Rochester, New York as Giehl" thing under his radio career.

This made me notice a lack of source listed adjacent to this though. I managed to identify when it was added though:

Special:Diff/670138032

Although added in front of the Luke Harper (traveling pants ep 8) reference, having watched that, I don't recall any mention of 94.1 WYNE there.

This is worth researching but I am keeping it fact-tagged in the meantime until verified.

I did come across http://www.imdb.com/name/nm5481592/ an IMDB for a Brett Giehl which refers to him portraying "Dalton Castle" in 2013 in CZW Ascension and 2014 in CZW High Stakes 5. Dalton apparently has competed in Combat Zone Wrestling but I think the question here is, did the CZW credits for either event ever reference a "Brett" and if so, where?

Having found a BG on FB there are photos for comparison. They appear to range from 2006 to 2007, compared to File:Dalton Castle in-ring.jpg from 2012 for example. I can see this being possible but can't tell for sure, might be easier if we could compare to Dalton in his earliest known match 18 April 2009 against Brett Mednik (if so, what's with all dem Bretts?) which would only be 2 years after the 'wrestling meet' photos were added to Facebook.

Some further research has things suggesting this, from a January 2014 comedy event: Mark Maira Does Stand up:

Come see 94.1 The Zone do stand up at The Joke Factory in the Holiday Inn Rochester Airport, 911 Brooks Ave, Rochester, NY 14624

Friday January 3rd @ 8pm

(Homeless) Mark Maira

Amy Milano

Shane Allen

Brett Giehl AKA Dalton Castle

Vinnie Paulino

and

Saturday January 4th @ 8pm

(Homeless) Mark Maira

Amy Milano

Zack Schaefer

Brett Giehl AKA Dalton Castle

Vinnie Paulino

Sadly http://www.jokefactorycomedyclub.com/Rochester.html appears to be down and the only functioning archive is from 2014.

It goes on to say in this announcement that " Dalton Castle and Shane Allen did great. One more show tonight at 8."

Of particular interest in addition to this text is the flyer associated with the event which reads:

Brett "Dalton Castle" Giehl

This appears like at least back in 2014 he wasn't trying to be particularly private about things. That could change in 2015 with his ROH/TNA work but prior to that on the Indy scene it seems based on this flier he was using it in comedy tours.

I also found this page for the event: http://www.wherevent.com/detail/Mark-Maira-94-1-The-Zone-s-Stand-Up-Show

It reads:

Brett Giehl AKA Dalton Castle

Just like the FaceBook event. Unlike Facebook this looks like possible reference-worthy material. Ranze (talk) 09:08, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Giehl or Ghiel

There appears to be some inconsistency about how to spell Brett's surname though, if this is indeed him. Starting with G and ending in L is consistent. ArmDrag.com uses HIE while his facebook uses IEH. The H can't seem to decide if it wants to rest just inside the start or end. Not sure how to resolve this and it would need to be before incorporation.

The aforementioned diff uses EIH but since I can't find that in any sources, am guessing it's a mistake of switching I and E from Giehl. It appears to support H-at-end though. Just as the spelling used in references support IE instead of EI. Ranze (talk) 09:18, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Gimmick and reception section is filled with unreliable/promotional sources.

Could we find something better to verify the claims?★Trekker (talk) 09:53, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 16 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page as proposed at this time, per the discussion below. The hatnote remains on the castle article for disambiguation purposes. Dekimasuよ! 15:49, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

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Dalton Castle (wrestler) → Dalton Castle – It is pretty obvious that he is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Looking at the page stats he had 74k page views in the past 3 months, while the castle itself had 2k (and who knows how many of those were ultimately coming here). The current Dalton Castle can be moved to Dalton Castle (England) with the hatnote moved to this page. Galatz^Talk 13:56, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose a real castle or a wrestler? Which is of more long term encyclopaedic value. "Dalton Castle is" in books refers to the castle. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:16, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Yes there will be more mentioned in books about a 700 year old castle than a wrestler who has been active for 10 years. But that has nothing to do with WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The primary topic is the one that people are more likely to look for. Judging by over 35 times to number of people looking for the wrestler, that is the primary topic, not the number of books it was written in. - Galatz^Talk 15:27, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
• Support. The wrestler has more views and traffic. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:28, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

So guys not even going to try advancing a case for the second half of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC? :) Sure and Wikipedia's editor base also has more wrestling editors than history editors, but could you go up the stairs on Mr. Brett Giehl and from his roof see both Morecambe Bay and across the Irish sea to the Isle of Man? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:55, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Not ignoring anything. I see nothing in the article that shows the castle itself is notable for more than just being old. If it just crumbled 500 years ago or if 600 years ago they decided to knock it down to build something else would anyone remember or care about it?

I would love to see your stats of more wrestling editors than history. Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Members has 10 times the members listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling/Members list. And that is just military history. - Galatz^Talk 17:10, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

If the castle had crumbled or been torn down 500 or 600 years ago, it might not be considered very historically important today, that is true. But the point is that it didn't. Things that endure for many centuries tend to have more historical significance than those that don't. Some other things tend to fade in popularity after just a decade or two. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:57, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

• Neutral / make disambiguation page? Although I don't currently have a supporting/opposing opinion on this move, maybe Dalton Castle should be occupied by a disambiguation page? If no consensus can be reached on if either is the true primary topic which users would most often be looking for, it might make sense to create a disambiguation page that occupies the main title. Paintspot Infez (talk) 17:25, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that's the likely outcome. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:45, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

After all, that's what disambiguation pages are meant to do. ONR (talk) 20:56, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose – The actual castle appears to have more long-term historical significance, not just recent popularity. The wrester has also been known by several names – not just Dalton Castle, but also Brett Giehl, Ashley Remington, Dalton Caroline Castle, and ten additional nicknames listed in Dalton Castle (wrestler)#In wrestling, so it is not clear how much weight to put on the topic name "Dalton Castle" for the wrestler. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:43, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. Long-term significance as against short-term popularity. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:15, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - Normal readers could easily assume the title is an actual castle .... and not to mention the External Linking issues it could potentially cause .... The current castle article is clearly the PRIMARYTOPIC as per above,. –Davey2010^Talk 19:20, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.