Talk:Dance of Osman Taka

Which dance?

The article currently describes the dance as "a 2/4 meter with steps 'slow-quick-quick'". According to recordings I've seen (mostly in youtube videos, cited and discussed in various talk pages here) this may be true for a generic type of "Valle Çame", but it apparently isn't true for the "Dance of Osman Taka". In all recordings I've seen (e.g. this one), Osman Taka is a song in 7/8 meter. These must be different dances. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:23, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and this instance of a "Valle Çame" appears to be in something more like 5/4 (3/4 + 2/4) meter. Yet something different? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:14, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

There are variation of this dance, so youtube can be a guide, but preference is best given to peer reviewed sources. I added some content to clarify the matter on this article. The dance of Osman Taka is a variation of the Valle Çame, though more commonly known as the Çamçe. Jaffe refer to this amongst others and notes that the dance is in 2/4 meter (i have placed an accessible weblink of the reference: [1]). Best.Resnjari (talk) 08:13, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Osman Taka dance is completely different than any Tsamiko variation. Not to mention that Nitsiakos doesn't claim that.Alexikoua (talk) 08:42, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

I am guessing you didn't bother to consult the other sources. Moreover it is an edited book with Nitsiakos being the editor. Chapter was written by Pisterick. On page 371 he states the following [2]: "In the case of a dance known in Southern Albania as "dance of Osman Taka" and in northern Greece as "Tsamiko." For future reference please consult the source as things are referenced in the article and weblinks are available.Resnjari (talk) 08:54, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Not even Nitsiakos mentions something close to that. The concept that Samantakas is the same popular as Tsamiko is a diferrent issue. For future reference cosult the previous discussion of the correspondent talkpage. The idea to ignore past cocnlusions by administrators can be considered as straight attempt of disruptionAlexikoua (talk) 09:02, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

I take it you still have not consulted the weblink. The scholar in question is Eckehard Pisterick and he wrote a chapter on his fieldwork in a book that was edited (i.e also compiled) by Vassilis Nitsikos. As Nitsikos has the final say, if there was an issue Pisterick's chapter it would not be there. Also when you do eventually lookup the weblink and consult p. 371 [3] you will notice that in the main is sentence : "In the case of a dance known in Southern Albania as "dance of Osman Taka" and in northern Greece as "Tsamiko." At the end of that sentence is the number 23 and a footnote on the same page with 23 down below. The footnote continues with the explanation on the dance: "In some parts of northern Greece also termed "Osman Taka" and Samantaka." I will place a incline citation for those who have difficulties in clinking on accessible websources of peer reviewed scholarship.Best.Resnjari (talk) 11:51, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

That "Folk Dance of Europe" book might be a useable source, but the passage in question is – to say the least – sloppily worded and needs to be taken with a grain of salt. In the sentence "The Greeks have borrowed it [i.e. 'the dance'] and given it the name 'Arvanitiko' [...], 'Tchamiko [...], 'Himariotiko' [...] and 'Klephtiko'...", the author would seem to be implying (if taken literally) that this "it" refers to a single dance and that Greek "Arvanitiko", "Tsamiko", "Himariotiko" and "Kleftiko" are all literally the same dance. Everybody who has seen Greek dancers and isn't entirely music-blind knows that they are not. They are similar dances, true, but they are not the same, and if we know that to be the case then there is also no reason to assume that any one of them is literally the same as either "Osman Taka" or other variants of "Valle Camce". I have no objections against Resnjarii's edits as soon as we change "in Greece this dance is known" to "in Greece similar dances are known". Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:35, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Its a snippet view of Jaffe, and i don't agree with it being sloppily worded. On the dance of Osman Taka, he is clear after he describes who Osman Taka was and in the following sentence he notes on page 208 [4]: "The dance has spread to other regions under its new name. The Greeks have borrowed it and given it the name of 'Arvanitiko' (Albanian), 'Tchamiko' (Came, from Camerie), 'Himariotiko' (from Himare), and 'Klephtiko' from Epirus." I still fail to see how that is sloppily worded. Even after Jaffe (1990) Pisterick who did fieldwork (2008) in the region notes the following about the dance of Osman Taka. On p. 371 [5] he writes the following "In the case of a dance known in Southern Albania as "dance of Osman Taka" and in northern Greece as "Tsamiko." At the end of that sentence is the number 23 and a footnote on the same page with 23 down below. And the footnote notes: "In some parts of northern Greece also termed "Osman Taka" and Samantaka." He makes no mention of similar dances but that the Osman Taka dance is also known as Tsamiko. This part is clear. If we say similar then we are placing our interpretation on Pisterick which is wp:or. Dances of the Camce/Vallja Came and Tsamiko and their variants in both the Albanian and Greek worlds are known by various and interchangeable names that have at times synonymous meanings. It is confusing but scholars have noted this on names (see: Koco, p. 14 [6], and the others and the weblinks are available).Resnjari (talk) 11:51, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Future Perfect's proposal for "in Greece similar dances are known" is recommended as it leaves out any possible assumptions or implications. -- SILENTRESIDENT 12:54, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Tsamiko has some 14-16 variations, but Osmantaka is still NOT a Tsamiko style dance. I agree with Fut's proposal. Also in depth research conducted by real experts on the correspodent field is also quite clear on that.Alexikoua (talk) 13:59, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Again that your personal take. Please present wp:reliable and wp:secondary sources to back up what you are saying. Wikipedia has rules, and original research is a no, no.Resnjari (talk) 14:40, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Resnjari, if you insist that the sources you quoted can only be understood in this literal way, then I'm afraid the only possible alternative is to declare the sources unreliable and refrain from using them at all, because in that case they are simply self-evidently wrong, and WP:RS is not a suicide pact. If by "this dance" these authors mean "this general style of dancing", then I have no issue with their statements and we can cite them without any problem. But if we find that by "this dance" they mean to refer to an actual, specific dance, i.e. a concrete rhythmic pattern of steps bound to a specific rhythmic pattern of music, then their statements are trivially and self-evidently false. A Greek Tsamiko is in 3/4 meter, the Albanian "Osman Takas" I've seen are in 7/8, and the sources we use for "Valle Came" describe those as 2/4. The sequence of steps used with music in 3/4 rhythm cannot ever, possibly, be the same as that used with music in 2/4 or 7/8. It's like claiming that the Slow Foxtrot is the same dance as the Waltz. No doubt they look similar, the general posture of the dancers is the same and many of the step combinations are similar, but if you were to try to actually dance the one to the music of the other, your partner would very soon have blistered feet. Have you ever tried to dance an "Osman Taka" to the music of a Greek Tsamiko? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:24, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Those conclusions are more on the side of original research and there is a Wikipedia policy about this and its very clear. The authors are scholars and they meet the requirements of wp:reliable and wp:secondary. The Osman Taka dance in Greece is known as Tsamiko and Osman Taka and Samantaka. Its does not refer to it being the Tsamiko, but that that particular dance has also acquired the name Tsamiko. Koco in his work cites Greek scholars among others regarding issue about Tsmaiko names on dances. II am sorry but all you have referred to is original research. I come from a region were we dance dances in this style or the next and it differs here or there from other regions. However that is my personal take on things. For Wikipedia articles peer reviewed material should from the basis, not personal experiences. Are you a scholar that has produced wp:reliable and wp:secondary on this matter because that's all i am seeing without any sources to back up what your commenting about ? If you feel there is an issue with all the scholarship i have used we can take these to the appropriate noticeboards. Resnjari (talk) 14:36, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

I have added a note section in the article on clarifying the issue.Resnjari (talk) 14:56, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

To clarify something about the supposed Greek version of Osmantaka: in Greek the dance of Osman Taka bears the same name (or Samantakas) not Tsamiko. The orchestral part is identical in both versions, rythm is identical, lyrics (although language is different) are almost identical, the same with the way it is danced. It is not danced as a tsamiko either by Greeks or Albanians (I fail to see the word Tsamiko in the dance's description in Dora Stratou database: [[7]]. Alexikoua (talk) 17:55, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

All that shows is that everything is identical with language lyrics being different. Neither Dora Stratou or Pisterick state that there are two differing versions of the dance in each country. Also one scholar that does not cover something does not by default omit the other. Unless Dora Stratou states outright what your inferring, Pisterick is still valid. Moreover your source is a web source only, and not peer reviewed. Pisterick did fieldwork in 2008 and wrote a chapter in Nitsiakos book and more than meets wp:reliable and wp:secondary. Unless you can show that these sources use and the scholars are not reliable, no need for original research. The Osman Taka dance is refer to as Tsamiko and carries one of those names in Greece (see Pisterick if you have not already done so). Thank you.Resnjari (talk) 03:51, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

There is also an interesting fact about various Epirus dances: the "gyrismata", it happens when the song is virtually over (singing is complete etc) then there can be an abrupt change in the rythm in the ending. The most usual gyrismata is when a Tsamiko or Zagorisio changes to Syrtos. But there can be also gyrismata from Syrtos to Tsamiko. Gyrismata happen also in Osmantaka. An example in Youtube with Osmataka changing to syrtos/pogonisios at the end [[8]] (during last 60 mins) and here is another version where Osmatakas' rythm is changing to Tsamiko ([[9]] at 4:09). That's the only connection of Osmantaka with Tsamiko I've found so far, off course the difference between Osmantaka and Tsamiko is very obvious in this last link when the rythm changes.Alexikoua (talk) 21:32, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

That all interesting and stuff, however content going into a article is based on wp:reliable and wp:secondary polices. There is a policy (WP:YTREF) about using youtube. Its is not a peer reviewed platform. If you want changes to this article based on your comments, (or bring additional info) bring some sources that meet wp:reliable and wp:secondary policies. Your the one who is always in your edits going on about being "precise" according to the source. I am putting your methodology here in practice.Resnjari (talk) 03:51, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I forgot to notice that this is recorded in numerous (reliable&secondary) reliable works on the subject. For example in research reported at the 18th World Congress [[10]], Osmantaka is one of 9 main dancing genres in Epirus (off course Tsamiko is another one). All of the sudden this academic paper also disagrees about the Osmataka being Tsamiko [[11]] (though the gyrismata to Tsamiko is recorded in some versions, in p. 162/no.1687, it's generally classified as version of "Pogonios" in a number of records). As for the quality of the reference you presented I have to agree with Fut..Alexikoua (talk) 10:12, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I never have said that the Osman Taka dance is the same as Tsamiko and nor do the sources. What the sources provide so far is that the dance has been referred to by that term and also by other multiple names. If you think that a sentence clarifying the issue should be in the body instead of the note, that is fine unless you Lenis discards Pistrick. I should also note on sources that they can be tested at the reliable research noticeboards. Pistrick and Koco are scholars in Western universities and their works were published by reputable publishing houses. As i have provided pages numbers, i hope its reciprocal. Which page number/s on the Lenis source are you alluding to ?Resnjari (talk) 10:23, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I was looking at the Greek government website on cultural stuff of the Konitsa area. All it says is that the Osman Taka dance is a different dance from Tsamiko. I am not disputing that. However what that source does not say is that the Osman Taka dance is not also called Tsamiko. Pistrick is still valid as he just says the dance is known by that name too. We can add the Konitsa stuff to the article for more info and clarification. On the name, scholars like Chianis, which Koco cites acknowledge issues around the term. Anyway which pages on the Lenis source ?Resnjari (talk) 10:42, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

The Koco claim can stay in accordance to Fut.s proposal. In general in-depth and detailed research in Epirus folklore (and not encyclopedias of European dancing or Albanian dancing in general) make a clear disntiction between osmantaka and tsamiko. By the way, is the osmantaka the only supposed representative piece of the so-called Albanian tsamikos?Alexikoua (talk) 12:50, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Since you cite Koco, i take it you have consulted the source, as such please refrain from referring to thing as "so-called". Koco cites Chianis on p. 16: "Finally, the term Tsamiko (referring specifically to that particular type of Greek folk song and its accompanying dance) is also used in Albania, though spelled Tchamicos. It must be especially emphasized, however, that the Albanian tchamicos and the tsamiko from Epirus and parts of Greek Macedonia are extremely similar, if not one of the same." Also Pistrick only refers to names, that the dance of Osman Taka has also been refered to by that name, i.e Tsamiko amongst others. No academic source that i used said Osman Taka was Tsamiko. They have however referred to the dance and its interrelated origins from a much more complex process. I am still waiting on the Lenis source. Which pages?Resnjari (talk) 14:57, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Off course I'll provide all necessary info, but fact is that the initial proposal as suggest by Fut. is the most neutral approach that avoids pov pushing. In case you insist on providing you pov I can do nothing more to help you on that (since you avoid to name an Albanian example of 'tchamicos' I assume the answer is negative.)Alexikoua (talk) 18:11, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

When you do provide the info, i.e page numbers of the Lenis source then we can proceed. As for a "neutral approach", you deleted a section of text that was not in question here or being discussed.Resnjari (talk) 19:05, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

After checking Koco's work in general, I'm afraid that Fut.s alternative option to declare it unreliable is reasonable. For example in p. 4 he recycles the typical ultranationalistic Albanian pov:[[12]] "To their wast the Epiri (Epirus Vetus and Nova) faced onto the Adriaticand Ionians Seas: although the island of Corfu . located just off the coast, is not generally regarded as being part of the southern province. This Province was dominated by a large Illyrian population but nevertheless contained a strong Roman presence." off course the bias about the so-called authocthony is also present: (p.78) "The Aromanian/Vlachs are originally mixtures of different indigenous tribes, who during Roman times were dwelling in south Illyria and lived in symbiosis with the autochtonous Albanian-speakers populace. There is also this weird claim: The Greeks call the Epirus region Thepsrotia while the Albanians call it Cameri. Off course under the same rationale that Epirus equals to Thepsrotia for Greeks, the author also claims that Osmataka is Tsamiko. I believe that there is nothing more to say about it & I'm going to replace some extraordinary claims with wp:SECONDARY and ACADEMIC.Alexikoua (talk) 18:49, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

We can test your claims out at the reliable noticeboard. Much of the sentences i based were on direct citations by Koco of a Greek source Chianis. Not sure if you looked at those pages otherwise that would be apparent. Is Chianis an issue too i take it ?Resnjari (talk) 19:05, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

All three editors have pointed to the problematic nature of your arguments. I also conclude that your claims are also based on bibliography that promotes the so-called autochtony unltra-nationlistic theories. I believe you should listen to the instructions offered by Fut., me and SR. However, in case you still ignore our advice and insits to add Koco who is obviously wrong on the Tsamiko=Osmataka hypothesis, then it's up to you to support such extraordinaly claims at any noticeboard. Until then this kind of unreliable reference is reverted per wp:BRD cycle.Alexikoua (talk) 19:28, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

All i have to say on this issue is that it can be tested at the reliable noticeboards. Just because a source is not to your liking does not omit it. A suggestion would be to consult wp:civil on your part. The Wikipedia project has rules and i abide by those until such time they change. Also the admin never said anything about Koco and also he has not contributed since to this discussion apart from offering Youtube videos as sources.Resnjari (talk) 20:09, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Came across this Greek thesis on musical traditions in northern Greek Epirus around the Zagori area by Sokratis Papas (2013) p.20: [13]. "Μερικοί από τους αγαπημένους χορούς της περιοχής (ξεχωριστά ανδρικοί ή γυναικείοι ή μικτοί) είναι οι εξής: Μπουλονάσαινα – μικτός χορός, Σταυρομάννα – μικτός χορός, Ποταμιά - Μικτός χορός, Ζαγορίσιος - Κωνσταντάκης – μικτός χορός, Μπαζαργκάνα – γυναικείος χορός, Φράσια – μικτός χορός, Πέντε παλικαριά – μικτός χορός, Κλέφτες – μικτός, Σαμαντάκας – μικτός χορός , Της νύφης – ανδρικός χορός , Τρεις λαμπαδούλες – μικτός (τσάμικος ), Γανωτζής – μικτός χορός , Τρεις λαμπαδούλες – μικτός ( τσάμικος ), Φεζοδερβέναγας – γυναικείος χορός , Αρχοντόπουλο – μικτός χορός , Παπαδιά – ανδρικός χορός , Καπέσοβο - μικτός χορός , Γράβα – μικτός χορός... Με βάση τους χορούς και το ρυθμό τα τραγούδια χωρίζονται πιο συγκεκριμένα ως εξής:... 4. Διάφορα τσάμικα: Τα μάγια , Απάνω στην τριανταφυλλιά , Καλονυχτιά , Για μη με δέρνεις μάνα , Στους κάμπους αναστέναξα , Μάγισσα δώσ ' μου φάρμακο , Κλέφτες , Οσμαντάκας και τα οργανικά Παλιά Ιτιά , Ήλιος , Παπαδιά και το Μπεράτι" No one is saying that this dance is Tsamiko, however it has been classified in that genre of dance and as Pisterick notes as been referred to as Tsamiko as an additional name.Resnjari (talk) 19:58, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

(I assume you simply ignore the overwhelming arguments presented above since you have run out of excuses). For future reference the Berati isn't a Tsamiko either, nor off course Osmantaka. Consult for example Lenis, about a detailed classification in Epirote discography and avoid oversimplifications that simply mention a list of dance-names and nothing more.Alexikoua (talk) 20:53, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Pages, which pages on Lenis support your commentary here ? Where does Lenis say that the dance of Osman Taka has not been referred to as a Tsamiko ? That's all i need and i will cease. If you don't bring one i still see nothing here that should make me discard Pistrick or Koco. The arguments presented are from youtube videos, now its discography and so on. The first sources that precede others are one that meet wp:reliable and wp:secondary. As for the Berati, i know the Albanian dance well and its not Tsamiko as it is part of the cultural repertoire of Prespa Tosk Albanian music. What Pappas is referring to is dance genres. Interesting that for Zagori he places Osman Taka in the Tsamiko category and was written some years after Lenis.Resnjari (talk) 05:43, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

I won't object the addition that in the Zagori dancing genres both Osmantaka and the Berati can be classified as part of a wider definition of Tsamiko. Else, per Lenis Osmataka is in 4/4 meter (at least its Greek counterpart) similar to Pogonisios (for example in p. 58/n.36/track 13, p.64/n.219/tr.2 and similarly: 65/223/5, 71/214/13, 76/242/27 +many more examples).Alexikoua (talk) 15:21, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

I accept what you say and most of it in here. The point that the scholars refer to is that the Osman Taka dance has at times been associated with the Tsamiko (genre). Two, some locals in Greece refer to the dance that way as Tsamiko (not everyone in the village is a purest -i.e Pistrick) but it does not mean that the dance is Tsamiko, as per the scholarship and is what i have been saying the whole time. ah ya ya.Resnjari (talk) 07:06, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

By the way which pages from Lenis, so edits can be made ?Resnjari (talk) 08:03, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Lenis' pages are provided above. Finally the general expression that Osmantaka is known as Tsamiko in Greece is de facto wrong and gets a more detailed explanation.Alexikoua (talk) 08:49, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't wear glasses yet, but i don't see Lenis' page numbers in your posts, just a link. Just saying. I need to know which pages to consult what you have said regarding thing being "de facto wrong. No OR remember. Resnjari (talk) 08:54, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

for example in page 58/number 36/track 13, p.64/n.219/tr.2 and similarly: 65/223/5, 71/214/13, 76/242/27 and some more.Alexikoua (talk) 09:07, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

ok, will do. Thanks.Resnjari (talk) 09:17, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

I see were your coming with this. On the list though Lenis gives a few peculiarities as i went through it (i counted the pages from 55 onward manually as there was no page numbers from what you gave me). Due to page number thing, i am going to give page numbers according to the PDF column showing page numbers and to also note the singer/band name to so you can copy and paste to find it easy in case the page number thing does not work. On the list he has one column ΤΙΤΛΟΣ ΣΥΝΘΕΣΗΣ(the dance) and then ΡΥΘΜΟΣ / ΤΥΠΟΣ ΧΟΡΟΥ(rhythm/dance type-genre). I came across these examples with the name Osman Taka. On p.58, track no. 12, ΟΣΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΠΑΝΟΣ ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ → ΤΣΑΜΙΚΟΣ; p.64. track 2, ΟΣΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΝΑΠΟΛΕΩΝ ΔΑΜΟΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ → ΣΤΑ ΤΡΙΑ → ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ; p. 65. track 5, ΟΣΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΠΕΤΡΟΣ ΛΟΥΚΑΣ ΧΑΛΚΙΑΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ → ΤΣΑΜΙΚΟΣ → ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ; p. 71, track 13, singer: ΠΕΤΡΟΣ ΛΟΥΚΑΣ ΧΑΛΚΙΑΣ, ΛΕΥΤΕΡΗΣ ΚΡΑΝΙΑΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ → ΤΣΑΜΙΚΟΣ; p. 77. track 27, singer: ΝΙΚΟΣ ΤΖΑΡΑΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ → ΤΣΑΜΙΚΟΣ; p. 91, track 22, singer: ΠΕΤΡΟΣ ΛΟΥΚΑΣ ΧΑΛΚΙΑΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ → ΤΣΑΜΙΚΟΣ → ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ; p.101, track. 11, ΟΣΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΑΛΕΚΟΣ ΚΙΤΣΑΚΗΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ → ΤΣΑΜΙΚΟΣ; p.128, track. 19, ΟΣΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΑΛΕΚΟΣ ΚΙΤΣΑΚΗΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ; p.129, track. 19, ΟΣΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΑΛΕΚΟΣ ΚΙΤΣΑΚΗΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ; track. 9, ΟΣΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΑΛΕΚΟΣ ΚΙΤΣΑΚΗΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ; p.130, track. 18, ΟΣΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΑΛΕΚΟΣ ΚΙΤΣΑΚΗΣΠΕΤΡΟΣ, ΛΟΥΚΑΣ ΧΑΛΚΙΑΣ, ΑΧΙΛΛΕΑΣ ΧΑΛΚΙΑΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ; p. 143. track. 10, ΜΠΕΡΑΤΙ-ΟΣΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΣΤΑΥΡΟΣ ΚΑΨΑΛΗΣ, type: ΜΠΕΡΑΤΙ ΗΠΕΙΡΟΥ → ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ → ΤΣΑΜΙΚΟΣ → ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ; p.145, track. 13, ΟΣΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΒΑΓΙΑΣ ΣΙΑΤΡΑΣ, ΚΩΝΣΤΑΣ ΦΩΤΙΟΥ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ. I came across these examples with the name Samantaka: p.59, track. 19, ΣΙΑΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ ΧΑΡΙΣΙΑΔΗΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ → ΤΣΑΜΙΚΟΣ; p.74. track. 17, ΣΙΑΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ singer:ΤΑΣΟΣ ΧΑΛΚΙΑΣ, ΦΩΤΗΣ ΧΑΛΚΙΑΣ, ΚΥΡΙΑΚΟΣ ΧΑΛΚΙΑΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ; p.80, track 7. ΣΙΑΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer:ΓΡΗΓΟΡΗΣ ΚΑΨΑΛΗΣ, ΓΙΑΝΝΗΣ ΠΑΠΑΚΩΣΤΑΣ, ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ → ΤΣΑΜΙΚΟΣ → ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ; p. 87, track 15, ΣΙΑΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer:ΚΩΣΤΑΣ ΤΖΙΜΑΣ, type:ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ; p.89. track.11, ΣΙΑΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΗΛΙΑΣ ΛΗΤΟΣ, ΛΑΖΑΡΟΣ,ΡΟΥΒΑΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ; p.95. track 9, ΣΙΑΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΤΑΚΟΥΤΣΙΑ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ → ΤΣΑΜΙΚΟΣ → ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ; p.96. track 5, ΣΙΑΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΤΑΚΗΣ ΛΟΥΚΑΣ ΧΑΛΚΙΑΣ, type: ΠΩΓΩΝΙΣΙΟΣ → ΤΣΑΜΙΚΟΣ. Lenis places many of these songs in hybrid genres of Pogonisios (of the Pogoni type) and being Tsamiko at the same time. I still don't see how he has refuted Pisterick about the Osman Taka dance being called by the additional name of Tsamiko, yet lone Koco (who cites Chianis) or even Jaffe. None of those three have said that Osman Taka is Tsamiko. Lenis like Papas though places Osman Taka within the Tsamiko dance genre. Just sayin'.Resnjari (talk) 11:03, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

It appears you didn't read the list carefully with its instructions. In general a usual feature in Epirotic songs are the "gyrismata", thus when a song is virtually complete it can end up in a different rythm (Lenis dedicates several pages for this feature). Osmantakas can end up in Tsamiko or Syrtos (the -> sign -> means gyrisma/change of rythm of the song in the end). In general it's impossible for a song to be both Pogonisios and Tsamikos at the same time.Alexikoua (talk) 21:14, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

It may be helpful to check the last two left columns of the list (unfortunately they appear on separate pages since the list is kinda broken), for example for p.58, track no. 12, ΟΣΜΑΝΤΑΚΑΣ, singer: ΠΑΝΟΣ ΑΘΑΝΑΣΙΟΥ, the last two columns can be seen at p. 178 (eight line from the end) with the note "Γύρισμα και κλείσιμο σε τσάμικο.".Alexikoua (talk) 21:45, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

I just looked at the list and skimmed part of the main text due to it being big (its why i asked for page numbers). Looks like i am going to have to read the whole Lenis source. Will get back to you sometime on the weekend.Resnjari (talk) 10:07, 24 February 2017 (UTC)