Talk:Daniel Ricciardo

Nationality

@Lobo151: - Regarding his lead sentence nationality, MOS:ETHNICITY/CONTEXTBIO states that "Nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability," this includes mentioning ethnicity unless otherwise stated (as his nationality is linked to the "Italian Australians" ethnic group). WP:BIOLEAD states that the first sentence should establish "context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable". Although he mentions having an Italian passport[1], Ricciardo is, AFAIK, most notable/prominent as an Australian racing driver and currently competing in Formula One as an Australian. His Formula One Biography simply states that he is "Australian",[2] as does his profile on the "Motor Sports Stats" website,[3] which is part of "Motorsport Network". There are also other sources here which simply describe him as being "Australian"[4] Clear Looking Glass (talk) 19:03, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Because his father is Italian I don't see why this should not be mentioned the same like for example Lando Norris or Lance Stroll.Lobo151 (talk) 19:42, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

@Lobo151: - I'm aware of his parents origins, and I'm also aware of the nationality wording of people like Lando Norris or Lance Stroll. But I've also read Wikipedia's guidelines. Personally, I'm not sure why other notable people like David Dobrik or Timothée Chalamet have arguments against mentioning their nationalities or other nationalities/citizenship that they possess but Ricciardo and other racing drivers are different. Ricciardo, as well as Lando Norris and Lance Stroll are AFAIK, most notable driving under one of their nationalities, but seem to be exceptions. And Chalamet for example has a French father, French citizenship and spent part of his childhood in France, but other users have pointed out Wikipedia's guidelines to justify why he is only "American". But I guess it is what it is. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 19:55, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

He is Australian not Italian. He was born and educated in Perth, Western Australia. His family still live in the family home of Carine, Perth, WA. He went to the local primary and high school. 2001:8004:13F0:18F:2035:44BE:D808:71A0 (talk) 01:13, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

With regard to the above discussion, I propose to correct his nationality to "Australian". GTHO (talk) 03:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

That is against what sources say in the article and provided here. Like said before this is not any different then Lando Norris or Lance Stroll.Lobo151 (talk) 05:19, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Lobo151 LesRoutine (talk) 09:41, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

What sources are we saying support him being shown as an "Italian racing driver" please? GTHO (talk) 05:55, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

The article and especially the lead is about him as a person, not solely about his racing career. It is clearly nuanced that he has both nationalities and is professionally active under the Australian flag. This is definitely less confusing and certainly more detailed than taking this information away from the reader. I don't see the problem. See also Nico Rosberg, Romain Grosjean, Lance Stroll, Max Verstappen, Lando Norris, Pascal Wehrlein,... LesRoutine (talk) 15:10, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Children of Italian parents are granted Italian citizenship at birth. Mb2437 (talk) 16:40, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Correct and this is confirmed by himself see this source quote ""I do have an Italian passport. I'm not going to say 'No, I wouldn't like to (drive for Ferrari)'. That's not fair," he said." Lobo151 (talk) 16:46, 23 September 2024 (UTC) Lobo151 (talk) 16:46, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

The issue is that he's rarely if ever referred too as Italian. It feels a bit off to list him as that in the bio, just as it does for Stroll, Norris and Wehrlein. Because they're rarely if ever spoken about in that way. At least Grosjean and Verstappen have more of a claim because of where they were born. But dual nationalities are rarely listed elsewhere on wikipedia, unless there's a notable reason for doing so. If Ricciardo had raced under the Italian flag at some point, then yes that would be fair. But he's born in Australia, grew up in Australia, races as an Australian and spends more time in the United States than he does in Italy. Listing it in the personal life section makes sense, because it's a bit of an interesting quirk. Listing him as "An Australian and Italian racing driver" is overstating things. Just as it was for the others listed earlier. Basetornado (talk) 10:51, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Just to add, it feels like someone had the idea to change the bios for as many drivers as they could find, without actually looking into if it's a good idea or not. Basetornado (talk) 10:52, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree with both of you. There are lots of articles about all these drivers talking about their nationalities. Especially Norris and Stroll you mention above, who call Spa their 'second home race'. It's their nationality, it's part of who they are and it's well sourced. Listing them only as the nationality they race for would be unfair to the article and actually just incorrect... LesRoutine (talk) 13:07, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@LesRoutine It would not be unfair to the article. The only source is a 2015 ABC interview where he simply says "I have an Italian passport". Searching "Ricciardo Dual citizen" has three results. One is about Norris, where it's saying "Things you might not know". Keep it for Norris etc if you wish. But listing Ricciardo as Australian and Italian is not in keeping with common usage, he wasn't born there, he doesn't live there, he doesn't race or represent them, his father was Italian-Australian and that's the only reason he has dual citizenship through birth. He lived there for a few years in Junior formulas, but that's about it. It's a good source for the personal life section. It doesn't make sense to use it for the intro, and it's misleading as it implies a larger link then it does. There are also plenty of ex F1 drivers who are dual citizens with much larger links that do not have that listed. Mario Andretti for example is simply listed as "an American former racing driver." despite being born in Italy.

Again this feels like someone has had the idea to list dual citizenships regardless of context, and it is not in keeping with how wikipedia pages are written. Basetornado (talk) 14:08, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

You are not correct. There is no difference between Norris or Stroll and Ricciardo. Because according to this source his father was born in Italy only his mother is from Italian heritage.Lobo151 (talk) 04:13, 26 September 2024 (UTC) Lobo151 (talk) 04:13, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Not that it matters here, but he was also wrong about Andretti. Andretti was born in the Kingdom of Italy, not Italy, which was a different country with different laws. The place he was born is Croatia now. Just a sidenote. LesRoutine (talk) 05:32, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I am correct in that wikipedia pages only use dual nationality if there is a notable reason for doing so. It is literally part of the style guide and already referenced here.

I will be changing it back, because it doesn't meet the style guide and "It's used incorrectly on other peoples pages" isn't a good enough answer for why to keep it.

There is no notable reason to list it in the intro. Basetornado (talk) 09:06, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Please be aware the page always included Italian. An user removed it without any discussions. I restored it back to the original and we need to discuss before any information will be deleted.09:44, 26 September 2024 (UTC) Lobo151 (talk) 09:44, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Additional we need atleast a Third opinion and also we need to discuss with F1 group if any changes here will be impact other drivers as well. We can't have this discussion for every driver separately. Untill that keep the page in it original style.Lobo151 (talk) 09:50, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

We have discussed, but the discussion is in bad faith, because there is no opinion here, how it is written currently does not meet the guidelines for a biography. Any biography page about a living person must meet the WP:BLP guidelines which also includes the manual of style for biographies. WP:MOSBIO. Any information that doesn't must be removed, which it states whenever you edit a page of a living person. I will quote from the styleguide. "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident;".

He is not notable for being an Italian citizen. His career in Italy or as an Italian citizen is not the reason he is notable. It is due to his career as an Australian racing under the Australian flag that he is notable.

The changes should impact other drivers, because they have likely also been written incorrectly. Some drivers it can make sense to list as both, but for Ricciardo in particular, it is clearly incorrect and so had to be removed. Basetornado (talk) 09:59, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Also "a third opinion"? 8 users have commented on this issue. 6 of them argued for Australian. Only yourself and @LesRoutine have argued against it.

We have had more than a third opinion.

What is the argument for keeping it as Australian and Italian that is also in line with the guidelines? If you can make one, then I have no issues keeping it up. But everything I have read so far, has led me to the same conclusion as others in the thread have made. It is a mistake to list it. Basetornado (talk) 10:03, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Once again you're trying to speak facts but you're wrong. You're the only person really pushing to take this well sourced information out of the lead. Removing it would be wrong. Saying 'Daniel Ricciardo is an Australian...' would be 50% correct, where 'Australian and Italian' would be 100% correct. He IS just as much Italian as Australian, the only deciding factor here should be his passport, not your opinion. LesRoutine (talk) 11:08, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, you're trying to minimise this to 'he is only Italian through his father' but that is also not true. He lived in Italy for years, he speaks Italian, both his parents and all his family are Italian, and he travels through Europe with his Italian passport (just like Norris and Stroll do with their second passport for convenience). But like I said above, he has an Italian passport and that should really be the end of story imo. LesRoutine (talk) 11:12, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

You ignored what I said. This is not about it not being true. It's that it does not meet wikipedia guidelines for biographies. It doesn't matter if it's sourced. That information goes in early life or personal life.

Someone has to be notable for being a dual citizen, or their notability has to be due to their work in both countries. He is not notable for being Italian. He lived there in junior formulas. But he does not represent them. He was not born there etc. He didn't grow up there. He even doesn't pronounce his own name in the Italian style. He may travel on an Italian passport, but Ewan MacGregor travels on an American passport for the same purpose which was a notable point in his most recent Long Way Round style show and he is still listed as a Scottish actor due to wikipedia guidelines. There are plenty of athletes with dual nationality due to family members but they aren't listed again due to the guidelines. Go look at Steve Nash, he is a British and Canadian dual citizen who was also born in South Africa. His page lists him as Canadian and mentions South Africa and his dual citizenship in the early life section where it belongs.

What your opinion on it, doesn't really matter if you can't back it up with the guidelines. They clearly state that he should not be listed as both unless they're notable for both. Please read them and then make an argument based on them. If you can't, then the nationality should be reverted back to Australian. Basetornado (talk) 11:57, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

In addition, how am I wrong in saying that 8 users have commented and only 2 including yourself have said to keep it? Have a read yourself. Basetornado (talk) 11:58, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

You're changing the numbers to match your opinion. Some people questioned it and didn't respond after they were explained why it's there. You're the only one that is pushing to have it removed. And you're conveniently leaving out Mb2437 who backed Lobo and myself with his comment.

I don't care enough about this subject to keep this discussion going to be honest. In my opinion, if he's half Italian it should be listed in the intro. That's how it's done for most living persons on Wikipedia, not only on en.wiki but in all languages. I don't really understand why you want it removed so badly that you're making such a big deal out of it. There's a lot of bigger problems to tackle on this project. I'm happy there's people like @Lobo151 though who's always on patrol to revert changes that remove sourced information like in this case, but also on the other driver's articles. LesRoutine (talk) 14:29, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Your opinion doesn't matter if it's against the guidelines. In addition, it's not vandalism to remove information that goes against those guidelines, even if it's sourced. Being sourced information means nothing.

I want it removed, because other than it being against guidelines, it's also misleading. I assumed it would be an easy change, because it's such an obvious error. Basetornado (talk) 20:29, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

The reason the precedent is different in F1 is that drivers frequently select nationalities for financial and political reasons, thus it is easier to state all their nationalities than simply the one they have selected. A notable current example of this in F1 is Alex Albon, who races under a Thai license despite having never lived there. This also applies to Max Verstappen. The fact there is a source cited of Ricciardo clearly stating he is Italian should be the deciding point in this argument. The only driver that hasn't wholly fitted this is Lewis Hamilton, whose honorary Brazilian citizenship hasn't been stated, although I agree with that. Mb2437 (talk) 18:27, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

While that may be relevant to the articles as a whole, it isn't relevant to the lead sentence. Ricciardo's Italian citizenship is not in question; it doesn't matter if he says it out loud or not. It doesn't bear relevance to his notability, and that's why it doesn't belong in the lead. If there's a guideline somewhere that says all citizenships should be mentioned in the lead sentence, please produce it. Albon's case is slightly different because he did race as British earlier in his career. But it's very clear: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable", not whatever else some editors think should be there. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:42, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

References

I don't want to spend a long time on this, but MOS:NATIONALITY is very clear, and there are several F1 driver articles that list other "secondary" nationalities. It doesn't matter at all that a second nationality is sourced, or true, or anything else. In the lead sentence, any extra nationalities or ethnicities should not be present. It doesn't matter at all that other articles do it, it's still contrary to the guidelines. Ricciardo's notability is as an Australian, and any Italian ethnicity or dual citizenship is not relevant to the lead paragraph. It's entirely relevant elsewhere in the article, but not in the lead, per the guideline. The only drivers who should have two nationalities in the lead sentence are those who have raced under more than one. I don't quite know why this discussion is so long. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:27, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

“ I don't quite know why this discussion is so long” … because it’s a guideline, not a set of rules. It clearly states in the guideline that exceptions can be accepted when necessary, and the consensus in F1 articles seems to be to name both nationalities when there is more than one, for the reasons @Mb2437 stated above. LesRoutine (talk) 18:32, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Guidelines are there to be followed, not ignored when some people decide their opinion constitutes an exception. In what sense does Ricciardo's Italian citizenship contribute to his notability as a racing driver? If it does not, then it does not belong in the lead sentence. Period. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:35, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Very hard to have an open discussion about this when you are so sure about your opinion you end with a rude ‘Period’. Have you read the first paragraph of the guideline at all? Yeah thought so… It literally says exceptions can be made and links to WP:IAR. So just like the other user above, you are just bending the rules to prove your point.

I’m just seriously wondering why it would be bothering anyone that it’s there when it’s well sourced. Just move on and worry about something important. LesRoutine (talk) 18:43, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

It isn't rude, and it also isn't my opinion. The guideline is very clear. If someone wanted to take this to an admin page, it would be a slam dunk. I have read the first paragraph of the guideline, thanks, so your "Yeah thought so" comment is misplaced, and certainly ruder than saying "Period". I'm bending the rules to prove my point? That is literally what you're doing. I'm suggesting the guideline should be enforced. You see that an exception can be made in rare circumstances, so you grab it and use it to justify your edit, without explaining why this exception to the guideline is justified with reference to the guideline itself. Your "nothing to see here" argument would go down really well with an admin, maybe you should try it. Sure, it's sourced, but just because something is sourced, does not mean it belongs in the lead. Still waiting for a coherent argument to say it does. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:50, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

It's bothering me, because like ive already said multiple times, it's misleading. If the vast majority of pages only list one nationality even when they're a dual citizen, it makes sense that when two are listed there would be a reason for that. But there just isn't here. It's only listed because someone decided that sourced information is the only thing that matters. I will be taking it to a admin page if it isn't changed soon, because it feels like we're getting nowhere here.

Like @Bretonbanquet said and like I have asked multiple times, you have to explain why it fits with the guidelines for it to stay. Not just "It's sourced" and "why do you care so much." Basetornado (talk) 20:39, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Previous edits which remove dual nationality referred to Wikipedia:WikiProject Formula One/Conventions. Changed made here should reflect all drivers. Therefore it is good it is discussed first at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Formula One. Lobo151 (talk) 02:44, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I have commented there. It is a misconstruing of the conventions though. It simply states in the article. It doesn't state to include it in the intro. My edit that was reverted, met guidelines and the convention by including the information in the article, but only listing a sole nationality that he is notable for in the intro. Basetornado (talk) 04:05, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I also agree with removing Italian from the lead sentence. MOS:FIRSTBIO is pretty clear on this matter - MoS guidelines for opening paragraphs and lead sentences should generally be followed.

MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE The main reason the person is notable.

MOS:NATIONALITY The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable

His notability derives from him being an Australian racing driver. Even the source shoehorned into the lead to support Italian, makes it clear he is Australian, and so do the overwhelming majority of reliable sources. Even his article on the Italian wiki describes him as è un pilota automobilistico australiano in the lead sentence. So do Italian newspapers,

• l’australiano Daniel Ricciardo,
• Daniel Ricciardo sull’AlphaTauri al posto di Lawson, ma l’australiano
• Daniel Ricciardo (Aus/RB)

I don't see any compelling argument being presented to deviate from our manual of style, and how he is described in reliable sources. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:20, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I have removed it based on a review of this section that there is no consensus for inclusion per WP:ONUS. I see consensus against inclusion, and the source given does not independently verify whether he holds the Italian passport.[5] It only includes the driver's quote that he does. Morbidthoughts (talk) 02:48, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Description of Max Verstappen

This is an unnecessary, personal attack. ”Max Verstappen (who is a cocky, angry, and lisp talking dutch)” 45.48.82.75 (talk) 23:06, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Y Vandalism removed. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. DH85868993 (talk) 05:08, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

“On loan to AlphaTauri”

Please do not alter the "on loan to AlphaTauri" phrase. Daniel Ricciardo is still a Red Bull test driver who has been loaned to AlphaTauri. PLEASE DO NOT VANDALIZE and believe that you are more correct than the Red Bull Team. If you're referring to the case of Carlos Sainz Jr., that article is likewise incorrect. You are not more correct than the official Red Bull Team because you are a Wikipedia editor, not a member of the Red Bull F1 team. SOURCE: “Daniel Ricciardo will be driving for Scuderia AlphaTauri with immediate effect. Joining the Scuderia on loan from Oracle Red Bull Racing, Daniel will line up in Budapest for his first race.” from https://www.redbullracing.com/int-en/daniel-ricciardo-on-loan-to-alpha-tauri-for-2023-season?utm_source=RBR_Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=DR_SAT_Announcement&utm_content=Press_Release The Man Without Fear ^🦇 20:14, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

I believe the title should simply be "AlphaTauri (2023-)". While Ricciardo is on loan from Red Bull Racing it's not mutually exclusive from the simple title "AlphaTauri (2023-)"; all the shorter heading is stating is that this is an era where he is driving for that team. The on loan aspect is mostly contracting details. Wanted to start a discussion, as several people have opted for different titles at this point and we should find a consensus before edit warring. Cerebral726 (talk) 20:16, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@5225C:, please discuss the change you wished to make here. I agree with your edit, and would like to reach a consensus here, per The Man Without Fear's request. --Cerebral726 (talk) 21:23, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

"PLEASE DO NOT VANDALIZE and believe that you are more correct than the Red Bull Team" is an incredibly bizarre thing to say. Nobody is claiming he is not "on loan". What editors have been doing is changing the wording and arrangement of the headings. This is not vandalism and does not contradict Red Bull, nor does it mislead editors. You are being overdramatic and presumptuous in your statements. When it comes to Red Bull, it is very well known that drivers do not contract directly with AlphaTauri: they make their contracts with Red Bull, and are then assigned to a team ([6]). This is why Red Bull can unilaterally rearrange its drivers mid season. Whether a driver is "on loan" is a minor detail - in Sainz's case, it is actually more important than it is here, since he was being contracted between two different teams. In the case of Ricciardo, it's entirely irrelevant, because de Vries and Tsunoda were also technically "on loan" from Red Bull. It's an utterly meaningless distinction to make in this context. Yes, it can be mentioned in the prose, no worries, although it shouldn't be mentioned in the lead. No, it does not need to be and should not be mentioned in the headings. The headings as I had them ("Return to Red Bull" being the level 3 heading, with "Red Bull Third Driver (2023)" and "AlphaTauri (2023)" being level 4 headings) were perfectly fine: they made clear Ricciardo was back in the Red Bull teams, included his stint as "Third Driver", and his return to active racing. This is the way we've always displayed it, and it's endured because there's actually nothing wrong with it. It's clear and concise and does not confuse the reader with inclusion of useless, trivial detail. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 09:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Good day my colleagues @5225C @Cerebral726. I have been very busy this days, and I lack energy for this, so I cannot discuss this anymore with you. You are welcome to remove the “On loan” and I will not revert it again. Consider this matter resolved 👍🏼 Thank you. The Man Without Fear ^🦇 21:07, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Description of personal popularity and smile

Lobo151, regarding this edit, which removed Off the track, he is known for his personal popularity, positive disposition, and smile. My goal with that statement was to reflect the fact that an incredible number of sources focus on those three aspects of him. Failing to include those descriptors gives an incomplete picture of Ricciardo. You removed the sentence with the statement that "we are not a fan site", but the text seems quite neutral to me, just reflecting sources like the following: [7][8][9][10][11] Cerebral726 (talk) 14:28, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

That is someting that should be mentioned under public image with more content provided. The opening paragraph should provide context for the activities that made the person notable. He is notable because he is a Formula One driver that won races. That he is known for his smile? That sound to me Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a fan website and not NPOV. Especially not for in the opening paragraph. What is next that we mentioned at Günther Steiner he is known for swearing?.Lobo151 (talk) 06:54, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Per MOS:BLPLEAD, The lead section should summarise the life and works of the person with due weight. A significant part of Daniel's life and notability is that he is immensely famous and widely known not only for his on track achievements, but for his distinct personality and smile. It is mentioned far more than any other driver on the grid, as shown by the 5 strong sources I provided as well as countless others ("Even when struggling, he's still got a sense of humor and a killer smile.""Ricciardo is a world-famous Formula 1 race-car driver with millions of Instagram followers and a zillion-watt smile," and another). There is nothing biased or peacock-y about using independent, reliable sources to establish notable and oft-reported aspects of Ricciardo, and not including them in the lead is not fulfilling WP:DUE. Cerebral726 (talk) 13:08, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I would like to hear other users opinions. I still don't see the need for it for in the opening paragraph. It should be mentioned under public image where it belongs.Lobo151 (talk) 07:51, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

He is immensely famous yes, and his smile is well known, but that is all because he is a racing driver, without his profession as a racing driver, nobody would have known about his smile. His smile also doesn't make an appearance anywhere without being linked to his racing activities. LesRoutine (talk) 11:48, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

3O Response: I would agree that such material does not belong in the lead, especially as without context, "is known for" is rather weaselly, and the material is pretty fluffy in tone. If reliable sources have commented on those things extensively, we can of course discuss that in the body of the article, as suggested, with additional context and without it just seeming like fluff and "talking up". Also, there is the question of whether those things are just mentioned in passing, or whether there's serious examination of them—for example, on what impact they may have had on his career or the like. If people just sometimes say, in essence, "I like his smile", that may or may not bear any mention at all. But definitely not in the lead. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:40, 19 July 2023 (UTC)