Talk:Danish minority of Southern Schleswig

Speckdänen

Slowcoach reverted a change mentioning the word "Speckdäne" calling it "racist vandalism".

I've re-reverted and cleaned up a bit. I think this is neither racist nor vandalism. Firstly, though the word is a slur it was actually used in the way mentioned, and the submitter simply informed of that usage. Secondly this looks on the face of it as a good-faith contribution, so I wouldn't cry vandalism. Nvj 17:46, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Nothing links to this. Since Schleswig and Holstein have historically mixed Danish and North German populations-- Danmark being a march or border county of the German stem-duchies-- why is this any more than a note under Schleswig (q.v.)? Danes call the duchy Slesvig. Any documentation of this tale?

Dänische Mark (Danish March) are a area between Schleswig town and the border of Holstein established in early 9th century by the Franks. But the name Denmark doesn't originate there, where it orginate are unknown, but it was used earlier. Some think the name orginate in northen Schleswig, when the Danes conquered it settled it after the exodus of much of the Angle and Jutish population, and it simply mean the Danish borderland, because the Danish kings of Jelling whom ruled Schleswig unified Denmark, it became the name for the entire state. But that's only a theory.

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I will rewrite the article as given so that it is slighty clearer: why is Flensburg in particular mentioned?

Jackiespeel 11:19, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Flensburg is a very important city, and almost became Danish. Thue | talk 23:13, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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Some things about this article are a little strange. It seems to imply that anyone can join an ethnic minority at will, which I find confusing. I'm also surprised that the influx of refugees etc. would cause growth from 2,000 to 62,000 in such a short period, but I guess that's possible. —Triskaideka 22:28, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, Schleswig has been sitting between Denmark and Germany for a long time, and I guess many people has both German and Danish ancestors. As a Dane I find it reasonable. Thue | talk 23:13, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If those people are already wholly or partly Danish, then I think we should say that specifically. What bothers me is that the sentence "This division was a source of tension, and many people chose to join the Danish minority in hopes of joining the much more prosperous Denmark and to avoid having to take more refugees" makes it sound like people of assorted ethnicities are spontaneously changing their ethnicity to Danish. One can change one's citizenship, perhaps, but not one's ancestors.

No it really is that way. People have for a long time been changing their ethnicity spontaneously and back and forth. That is why the numbers of Danes and Germans in the area change so much from year to year. —johanneswilm 13:50, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)

If we could change the sentence to read, for example, "...many Danes chose to join...", that would be fine. If, instead, non-Danish people are joining a group that happens to consist largely of this Danish minority, then I think it would be more precise to call the new group something other than a "Danish minority". Unless, of course, "Danish minority" is the term commonly used for it locally, despite being imprecise, in which case we should say that. I didn't want to make any of these changes without asking because I don't know which (if any) is true. —Triskaideka 16:02, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I see your point; if I get the time and possibility I will try to find a book about it and fix the article... Thue | talk 23:13, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You take it as given that people have a nationality to start with. That might be the way where you come from, but it is not in the case of Southern Schleswig. Here national affiliation has bene a matter of choice since at leats the 1830s. —johanneswilm 13:50, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)

This is the legal situation: The states constitution allowed and allows (new constitution since 1990) anyone to declare themself a member of the danish minority without any test or any prerequisites. Especially after World War II a lot of people wanted to apostatize from germany, so they "joined" the danish minority -- even with no knowledge of danish or the danish traditions. They were called "Bekenntnisdänen" (confession danes). As this confession has no further legal effect, this was no legal problem (but a cultural). Especially you did not gain any special rights to apply for danish citizenship (the danish minority are german citizens; of course there are even living danes in that area: around 9.000). The only time to apply for danish citizenship was 1920 after the vote.

Oh, and by the way, the danish minority exists since 1864, when Austria and Prussia occupied the country. 1920 was the year of the vote, when the northernmost part went back to Danmark. Since then the german minority in Northern Slesvig existed. --84.144.254.108 08:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the article might be clarified somewhat by mentioning the concept of "dansksindet/tysksindet" (da)/ "Dänisch/deutsch gesinnt" (de) meaning "danish/german minded". Being danish minded means a general cultural orientation towards Denmark, at least some knowledge of/interest in the danish language, and a wish for Southern Schleswig to join Denmark, and vice versa for german minded. (Now that the border question is settled the last part is optional, most people from both minorities feel quite fine about the current arrangement). Mother tongue and descent do influence national orientation, but it's not fixed, and many people are bilingual anyway, not to mention that nationality only became an issue with the advent of nationalism. There are actually examples of people out of wholly danish/german minded families switching afilliation out of feeling a stronger cultural/political resonance with the other side. In that way it makes more sense to think of it like choosing a religion or party at odds with your familys. The last thing to mention is that I don't think the actual number of danish minded people ever sank as low as 2-3000, it seems more likely that they simply withdrew from organizational membership out of fear of persecution. Nvj 19:37, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

communists?

Does the sentence "In the 1920s, there were around 1,200 communists in the city of Flensburg, though the party declined in the pre-war years." belog to this article? It looks as completely out of context. Pavel Vozenilek 01:08, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

The point is that a common theory is that the communists of the 1920s were the Danes of the Nazi-period. Numbers for this theory do of course not exist. —johanneswilm 13:50, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Flag

Is this is a real or imagined flag?

-- Himasaram 05:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It is used by the SSW, the Danish political party in Southern Schleswig. I have seen it on Norddeutsche Rundfunk reporting from a Danish meeting, and I've also seen it as part of a row of foreign flags during Venstre's convention last year. If anybody wonders why it was included in the latter context; the SSW is one of the parties sending a speaker to Venstre's annual convention. I don't think it is used outside of SSW party contexts. I suppose the ordinary member of the Danish minority would simply use the Dannebrog. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 10:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a imagined flag. The danes in Southern Schleswig use the Dannebrog or sometimes the real Schleswig flag (here). --Ntl-fl 14:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the "real Schleswig flag" as you call it was the one I was thinking about. I never noticed that the lions seem to be off-centre. Valentinian ^{T / C} 14:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Lacking numbers, historical dates, etc.

During the last "months", there have been some reverts that included sometimes detailed new information, but erased also some existing ones. And a little bit POV... So the article merits some "lifting":

1. „clear“ and „small“ in relation of the results from the 1920 election are POV and not exact.

2. There is indeed at least one clear criterion to distinguish Danes from Germans: the language. But like it is already mentioned, this criterion is not taken into account.

3. The number of the minority only had fluctuations since the World War (better: after the World War), so “has always been fluid” is not true.

4. An eventual “rediscovery” of Danish roots is sometimes mentioned, but only from some “ancient” Danish nationalists to prove that Schleswig would be “old Danish country” – but those “roots” would have to be proved, which would be impossible as no ethnic origins can be investigated. For the myths about the history of Schleswig, please refer also to the Danish Web Site "http://nordslesvig.dk/cms/dan/index.php?Slesvigs_Historie:Myter_om_Slesvig"!

5. The fluctuation can be indicated by the number of members of the Danish organizations – so the erased part should be put again into the article like it was.

6. Some links about this fluctuation should give an idea about the reasons for those fluctuations.

41.221.206.157 20:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.221.206.157 (talk)

Germanization or immigration ?

1. Please give a proof for “re”unification – the Duchy of Schleswig had never been part of the Kingdom of Denmark, so it could not be a ”re”.

2. Please give an indication why the part “Membership in the Danish minority has been fluid since 1945” has been erased. The membership has in fact been fluid: 3,000 members before the war, 120,000 members after the war, 20,000 mebers until the 80’s, 50,000 (?) members today.

3. Please give an indication why the part “objective criteria like e.g. the language to distinguish a German Schleswigian from a Danish are not taken into account” has been erased. If objective criteria are considered, they could and should be mentioned – I think that the expression “and not on any blood quantum in their Ahnentafel” is very likely to “bold and ground” of the nazi vocabulary…

Sigtryggr 11:29, March 23 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sigtryggr (talk • contribs)

Danevirke Museum nær Schleswig/Slesvig

The sentence "Danevirke Museum nær Schleswig/Slesvig" appears to be in Danish. Could someone translate that?  Liam987(talk) 15:20, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

"nær"->"near". Fixed. Thue (talk) 15:56, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Danishness as a fad?

I have removed the last part of the sentence: "Since then, the minority has slowly been gaining size, and it has been claimed that it has become fashionable to be a Dane in Germany (albeit in Central and Southern Germany). - with the reference labelled: "The Danes in Germany. Example of New Danes"" This seems to be an offspring of a lengthy edit war in German Wikipedia some years ago, with some editors being eager to demonstrate that the number of Danes in Germany is inflated and that many members of the minority are following a fad and not being 'real' Danes. The source is not relevant if it pertains to conditions in South and Central Germany, and the link is broken. I have searched for the source which appears to be a transcript of a short documentary movie (archived here and here), but it is not clear who has published the movie. It is possibly a presentation movie of the Danish minority, but quotes by individuals in the movie obviously don't have any official or scientific status. A lot of the rest of the article still appears to have been written with the aim of questioning the status and size of the Danish minority. --Sasper (talk) 00:13, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

References

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