Talk:Danny Wilson (footballer, born 1960)

Protect this now!

This page needs to be protected , bitter Sheffield United fans are vandalising this page as part of a protest. Protect it before further vandalism.Itsupforgrabsnow (talk) 17:45, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 21:41, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

• Danny Wilson (Northern Irish footballer) → Danny Wilson (footballer born 1960)
• Danny Wilson (Scottish footballer) → Danny Wilson (footballer born 1991)

– Names of are generally disambiguated using year of birth as per WP:FOOTY MOS. I think the older of the two was created some time before this was standardised and the younger based on the naming of the older. Or maybe not as there seems to be a redirect for the former at the proposed name? Either way they should be standardised. Bladeboy1889 (talk) 13:24, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Especially considering the ambiguity in the nationality of the elder Wilson. Mattythewhite (talk) 14:53, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Year of birth is widely regarded as a last resort in relation to disambiguation. I see nothing about this at WP:FOOTY. The elder Wilson did play for Northern Ireland, but if there is any ambiguity it is that he might be regarded as English not Scottish. PatGallacher (talk) 00:05, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment if this isn't renamed, then the redlink should become a bluelink redirect. -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 07:16, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per Pat. -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 07:16, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - DOB is standard amongst football player articles due to the often contentious notion of nationality. Players are often born and raised in one country but play international football for a completely different one (and in some cases more than one.) In other words, footballers nationality can change over time. The elder Wilson was born and raised in Wigan, has never lived or worked in Northern Ireland, but was eligible to play for their national team. Had the article been created earlier in his career he would have been identified as Danny Wilson (English footballer), then there would have been a very messy debate once he began playing for Northern Ireland about renaming the article.

The nationality of such individuals is a constant source of rancour and debate within football articles, thus DOB being used as an identifier as it is something that is not subject to change over time. Renaming these articles would provide consistency with other football related ones. Bladeboy1889 (talk) 08:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support - year of birth is a fact; nationality is much more subjective and open to debate. Wilson was born in England and represented NI at international level, his 'nationality' is not straight-cut. Nationality should be avoided at all costs as a disambiguator. GiantSnowman 12:39, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• Totes support; year is clearer. Red Slash 18:33, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support - year of birth is much clearer than nationality, which is not clear-cut at all -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:38, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - I agree with Pat, and think nationality should be used as a disambiguator instead of DoB, unless the nationality is in doubt. In this case there isn't, and as long as the Scottish one don't decide that he wants to play for Northern Ireland or England, there is no problem to call the oldest footballer for Northern Irish and the youngest for Scottish. Danny Wilson (English footballer) could even redirect to the oldest one. Mentoz86 (talk) 02:14, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The fact that you are suggesting that a title using one nationality should redirect to a title using a different one suggests that his nationality is very much in doubt...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 05:59, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I see your point, but even if you'd call the oldest one "English", you wouldn't confuse him with the Scottish one. Mentoz86 (talk) 08:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

What if, in a few years time, there's another couple of footballers called Danny Wilson, one from Scotland and one from Northern Ireland? Using nationality to disambiguate players is not only open to interpretation but also in some cases a high chance of repetition. Bladeboy1889 (talk) 09:03, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, if that happens we would have to change the names of these articles, but until that happens nationality is a more recognizable disambiguator. And when you look into the WP:CRYSTALBALL, I might aswell: What if we in a few years have an Australian footballer born in 1992, and a Welsh footballer born in 1993 with the same name - what would be the most precise and recognizable disambiguator? Mentoz86 (talk) 09:25, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

We'd label them as Player x (footballer born 1992) and Player Y (footballer born 1993) the same as 95% of other football articles? Bladeboy1889 (talk) 12:10, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment Also WP:CRYSTALBALL isn't relevant here - that's regarding the content of articles not being speculation or covering things that haven't happened yet. There is a difference between that and 'future proofing' things like MOS and conventions. The bottom line is that the number of articles on footballers is going to grow, probably by several thousand every year, from now until forever. By recognising that the need for differentiators in titles will only grow exponentially and settling on a standard that leaves considerably less potential for retrofitting in the future is clearly of benefit.Bladeboy1889 (talk) 18:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - we have to remember that, in addition to disambiguating articles, disambiguators should also accurately describe the subject of the article in question. Clearly the current title does serve the purpose of disambiguating the older Danny Wilson from the one who is Scottish, that's fair enough, but does it also accurately describe him? Given that he was born in Wigan, is it accurate to describe him as "Northern Irish"? I would say not. -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:06, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. It is definitely not standard procedure to disambiguate anyone by date of birth except as a last resort. I agree that Wilson's "nationality" (his official nationality is British, of course, as is the other Wilson's) is ambiguous, since he was born in England, but since he played for Northern Ireland I think it's fine to leave it as is. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:31, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support per standards and in this case is less likely to cause confusion, as they were born 30 years apart. It isn't a "last resort" - examples include Stuart Elliott (footballer born 1977) and Stuart Elliott (footballer born 1978) and others. Peter James (talk) 23:25, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support Although this Wilson played for Northern Ireland, his nationality is ambiguous, so DOB is a preferable disambiguator. Number 57 14:12, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support both - As has been noted above, nationality is a fairly ambiguous issue in football (place of birth, national team, ancestry, et cetera ad infinitum). The only standard disambiguator that is not controversial is their date of birth. – PeeJay 14:58, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support - DOB is a standard dab method for footballers, and nationality can be contentious. Eldumpo (talk) 21:14, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Support per Mattthewhite and GiantSnowman. Narom (talk) 14:55, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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