Talk:Dante Alighieri

Florentine or Italian

What defines a culture is always contentious and not clear cut, but since Italy did not exist for 600 years after the birth of Dante, shouldn't it be more correct to define him as Florentine? On the other hand, he left Florence and lived most of his later life around northern Italy. Eccekevin (talk) 04:11, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Nationality is not tied to the existence of a state

Hebrews were Hebrews even without Israel. Curds are Curds without a stare. Or isn't Beethoven German? 79.20.207.69 (talk) 22:55, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Both: the modern Italian nation was created in the 19th century but Italy as a geographical area has been existing since the ancient Roman times. Claiming that Dante was not Italian would be like claiming that present day Italians, Norwegians, Germans, etc., are not European. Pier, 17 September 2021 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.105.243.141 (talk) 12:15, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

This issue has taken several forms. Compare Talk:Immanuel Kant, Archive 6, sections 18 and 62; there is now a consensus that Kant should be referred to as German, partly in recognition that a "German" culture and national consciousness preceded the creation of a state named "Germany" in the nineteenth century. MOS is vague - MOS:CONTEXTBIO. I'd say that for Dante we should go by the fact (as I think it is), however it has come about, that he is universally counted as Italian. A "Florentine" today (I think) is a person from the Italian city of Florence (Firenze), not necessarily thinking of the city's independent history. Errantios (talk) 11:36, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Possible fringe and OR information ​

Dante Alighieri was an Italian poet, note: "Though an Italian nation state had yet to be established, the Latin equivalent of the term Italian (italus) had been in use for natives of the region since antiquity".

• This information is based on the letter of Pliny the Elder((AD 23/24 – AD 79), Letters 9.23. [23] L To Maximus. [[1]] "He said that he was sitting by the side of a certain individual at the last Circensian games, and that, after they had had a long and learned talk on a variety of subjects, his acquaintance said to him: "Are you from Italy or the provinces?" Tacitus replied : "You know me quite well, and that from the books of mine you have read." "Then," said the man, "you are either Tacitus or Pliny."

It is a primary source WP:PRIMARY, and secondary source in this sense does not exist. Given that the primary source only mentions: "Are you from Italy or the provinces?" and the article contains information: "the Latin equivalent of the term Italian (italus) had been in use for natives of the region since antiquity", it is obviously a violation of the rules of wikipedia ie. WP:OR and WP:FRINGE since there is no secondary source that states this and also information from the article in this sense and with this fact, has not been published anywhere, that is, it does not exist anywhere. Based on the above reasons, I suggest that this information be removed from the article because it does not comply with the rules. Thank you. Mikola22 (talk) 14:41, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

It's fine to quote primary sources, but obviously the second part is an editorial deduction. Let's cut it now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:01, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Chiswick Chap Thanks for the answer, can you please show me or quote me where Pliny the Elder says: "the Latin equivalent of the term Italian (italus) had been in use for natives of the region since antiquity"? and in which context it concerns Dante Alighieri? Mikola22 (talk) 15:07, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I cut it already, but hey. The editorial deduction was possibly OR but nothing more. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:46, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Are you maintaining that "Italian" is an invalid term when applied to someone living in Dante's times? Does this entry in Lewis & Short's dictionary, where the Pliny source you've referred to is only one of the many citations, convince you that "Italian" has been used since ancient times? Since the Encyclopaedia Britannica calls Dante an "Italian poet, prose writer, literary theorist, moral philosopher, and political thinker", I don't think our characterization is particularly "fringe" or debatable. Deor (talk) 15:05, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Deor My proposal is related to this situation ie information. You can open another topic so we can discuss it. Is this information fringe or OR? Mikola22 (talk) 15:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

WP Challenge: 'One of first to publish in vernacular language in Roman Catholic Western Europe'

The text states: Publishing in the vernacular language marked Dante as one of the first in Roman Catholic Western Europe (among others such as Geoffrey Chaucer and Giovanni Boccaccio) to break free from standards of publishing in only Latin (the language of liturgy, history and scholarship in general, but often also of lyric poetry).

This is problematic from a couple of stand points, parts such as "break free from standards of publishing" are borderline WP:Editorial. But more than that this isn't true. There are a number of Old English / Anglo Saxon authors such as Cynewulf, Cædmon and the author of Beowulf who are Christian, from Western Europe and who write in vernacular and who also predate Dante and Chaucer by up to 700 years in the case of Cædmon. While I appreciate the point the article is trying to make; it's making the statement so broad as to be incorrect. Also depending on how we define Christian and Western Europe the Norse Sagas are also examples of extent literature written in vernacular which predate Chaucer and Dante. Once again I'm not trying to lessen Dante's achievements but pointing out that this section seems overly superlative. 2601:2C3:800:6E0:9DB6:1C3D:39A0:324C (talk) 18:55, 25 September 2024 (UTC)