Talk:Danzhou dialect

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Requested move 24 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. – robertsky (talk) 14:47, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

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Danzhou dialect → Danzhou Chinese

Modern sources consider it to be a divergent variety, not a “dialect” of Yue Chinese. Yue itself is not a language, but a family which contains (among others) the Cantonese language. Given the word “dialect” is heavily misused in Chinese contexts (as it carries very different connotations in Chinese), this move would avoid misleading the reader. Compare the recent move of Mai Chinese, which is a related variety in a similar situation. Theknightwho (talk) 18:40, 24 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans 10:20, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

• oppose – "dialect" is a perfectly reasonable term for the variety of a local area, and commonly used as such in the literature. It also matches Wikipedia convention. "dialect" has no connotations in Chinese – it is an English word. The connotations of Chinese words are not relevant here. Kanguole 19:36, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

  @Kanguole It isn't a dialect, because Yue is not a single language, and it's not even clear that this is Yue in the first place, in which case "dialect" is outright misleading. It isn't consistent, either, since we treat no other unclassified varieties this way. The reason the connotations of "dialect" in Chinese are relevant is that it's a common (bad) translation of the Chinese term 话, which just means "speech". Theknightwho (talk) 06:43, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

  You are fixing on a particular sense of "dialect", but that is not the sense used here. To quote Jerry Norman, "Here the term dialect is used simply in the sense of a distinct local form of speech." That is common usage in the English-language scholarly literature, which is what is relevant here. There is no implication of a relationship to any "language", which is sensible, as delimiting "languages" in the Chinese situation is problematic. The recent move of Mai Chinese had very low participation. Kanguole 10:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

  @Kanguole No other unclassified variety uses "dialect" (of the 8 others in Template:Chinese language), and that wasn't why Mai got moved.

  More importantly, you cannot simultaneously argue that the definition of "dialect" in Chinese is irrelevant, while also arguing that we should use that very definition in order to justify the use of the word "dialect". It simply highlights that "dialect" is a poor choice, unless we are going to start using it for the major varieties as well (because, after all, those are "distinct local form[s] of speech" as well). That's why we reserve it for less divergent varieties that can more easily be classified, because we are evidently using it in a narrower sense than that. Theknightwho (talk) 21:13, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

  "dialect" has no definition in Chinese – it is an English word. The above quotation is in English.

  Wu, Yue, etc are not local varieties, but rather groups of local varieties, so it makes sense to treat them as a different level, as is usually done in the literature.

  There is no uniformity in the Wikipedia naming of unclassified varieties, but there is rough consistency in naming individual local varieties as "X dialect". Kanguole 09:35, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting due to minimal participation. Informing Wikiprojects for input. Reading Beans 10:20, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Google Scholar finds a lot more results for Danzhou dialect than for Danzhou Chinese. In the latter search, all three results that currently show up are about biology, not linguistics. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 15:19, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.