Talk:Dar Glaoui

February 2023

There are inconsistencies between the sources and the article, mainly the attribution of the palace to Thami when all sources and records confirm this was confiscated by his brother Madani in 1908. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TrivialPursweet (talk • contribs)

Please do not change or add information into material already attributed to sources that do not verify your changes, as you've been doing in this article. That's obviously confusing and misleading to readers; see WP:OR and WP:INTEGRITY for relevant guidelines if needed. Secondly, you say "all sources" support your point without demonstrating that. If there are other sources contradicting the sources already cited in the article (which is certainly plausible as there's not a lot to go on so far), then please provide them here so we can sort it out first and then fix the article accordingly, if needed. Please do not edit-war in the meantime by repeating your edits.

The source you cited here (it seems you linked the wrong one, by the way, this link should be correct) does not identify which house was confiscated, it just says "la maison de Tazi" and nothing more. There were many residences owned by the Tazi family in Fez (some are still known by that name today), and probably many were confiscated, so that doesn't help to clarify the question at all, whereas the other cited source is explicit. Thanks in advance for any clearer information, R Prazeres (talk) 20:09, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres hi. apologies for the formatting issues. I don't intend to engage in an editing wars but none of the sources that have been provided so far (including Maxwell) attribute the construction and ownership of the palace to Thami El Glaoui. I have provided another source (directly from the French national archives) that affirms it was Madani El Glaoui who confiscated the palace which was previously owned by the Tazi family. This aligns with Maxwell and Stétié. Not sure which source affirms it was Thami's. 2A01:4C8:1083:4313:941F:6E4D:A1DE:3698 (talk) 21:15, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi TrivialPursweet (I assume you responded while logged out, please try to stay logged in so it's easier to follow the discussion). Thanks and no worries, it's hard to get everything right when you're starting out here.

First: I just realized some of the confusion is coming from a citation mix-up: the attribution to Thami is from the Cavender thesis, not from Maxwell. I've fixed this inline here. (I actually couldn't easily find anything about this point either way in Maxwell's book, though the edition I have lacks an index, which makes it harder to find any relevant pages.) Cavender (p.100) says: "Towards the end of the nineteenth century, Thami Glaoui became the pasha of Marrakesh, and built a luxurious house in Fez and Marrakesh. Dar al-Glaoui in Fez consisted of twelve houses, hamams, garages, Quranic schools, two large gardens, stables, a mausoleum, and a cemetery (Fig.11)." It comes with photos (Fig 3.11 on p.218) that further confirm which building they're talking about. As for Stétié, he says the house was claimed by the last Pasha of Marrakesh ("dernier pacha de Marrakech"), which would necessarily be Thami to my knowledge.

That doesn't rule out that these authors didn't get some details wrong, but per the verifiability policy we have to stick to what reliable sources explicitly say, otherwise we'd be resorting to our own personal interpretations of what they should say, which is a WP:OR problem. If we have other sources that are reliable and detailed, we can compare and make adjustments. If necessary, we can even explicitly note any contradictions between sources in the article itself (per guidelines of WP:NPOVHOW). But we need clear sources, and the one you cited ([1]) isn't clear enough in this context. R Prazeres (talk) 21:37, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks a lot and for clearing up the confusion on the source. I think this source is weak as it is a matter of public record (see the article on him) that Thami El Glaoui only became Pasha of Marrakech in 1909 on the instigation of his brother Madani. Certainly not at the end of the 19th century. This seems to be a weak source, weaker than Maxwell. Will try and find other sources. TrivialPursweet (talk) 22:07, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Reading through Cavender's thesis (which doesn't seem to have been published and edited) she is misquoting Maxwell when stating that Thami became Pasha at the end of the 19th century (and also that he received a Krupp canon from the Sultan). She is confusing him with Madani and Maxwell makes no such mistake (I have his book in hand) TrivialPursweet (talk) 22:10, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

I.e not sure how Cavender is considered a "reliable source" as per your kind response. TrivialPursweet (talk) 22:11, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I can't vouch for Cavender beyond the fact that it's a PhD thesis, which by definition is reviewed by multiple academics before being submitted, so it's usually reliable enough. Of course, I'd prefer a more edited source that's gone through a formal publication process, but this was the only source I found that said something explicit about who built the house (with Stétié seeming to confirm at least the part about Thami). I agree that the "end of the nineteenth century" detail about Thami's appointment looks off to me, which is why I made sure to quote the whole sentence here for us to see. If you happen to find any pages in Maxwell's book that talk about his residence in Fez, or any thoughts on other sources, please do mention them here. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 22:30, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Additional comment: Given that we don't have ideal sources (based on what we've said above), I have some thoughts about how we could revise the current statement in the article to be more neutral in this regard until we do find better sources. However, I'm unfortunately very busy with work until the end of this week, so I won't have time to put it together until then. I think it also wouldn't hurt to wait a little longer and see if we come up with more sources in the meantime. So how about I leave an inline tag in the article indicating that we're looking for more sources, and let's keep this discussion open. I hope that sounds constructive. R Prazeres (talk) 23:16, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Maxwell page 94:"Hafid began to press Madani to return to Fez, but Madani showed no haste to obey the Imperial command. When he did at length travel north he did so with full retinue of a Sultan; and savouring his vengeance to the full, took up residence in the PALACE WHICH AMONG MUCH ELSE HE HAD CONFISCATED FROM THE EX-GRAND VIZIER TAZI" (upper cases mine).

I think the sources concur here. I find the same in Grand vizir Madani El Mezouari El Glaoui (Le) : Une vie au service du Makhzen (ISBN 10: 9954105506). Cavender seems mistaken but she's not a historian. She quotes the bit about Thami from Maxwell but that's obviously a misquote or misread on her part. TrivialPursweet (talk) 23:26, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

That's helpful, but frustratingly it still doesn't clearly identify which building it's referring to. Amal Cavender's thesis could have errors, but she was still a professor on architectural history ([2]) and her thesis is focused on Fez, so I'm not willing to dismiss it that quickly. What we probably need is a detailed study focused on the building itself, but unfortunately I never found one despite the palace being relatively well-known to the public. My suggestion is that we reword the inline statement more generally, without committing to specific details that require some original synthesis, and instead describe what each of these sources say, without embellishment, in a footnote (like the one currently about Stétié), letting readers decide whether to read more and judge for themselves. In the future, we'll hopefully find more. R Prazeres (talk) 23:52, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

ISBN 10: 9954105506 which I just mentioned notes that Madani's palace was occupied by the French upon the signature of the Protectorate Treaty. This is also what the article says about Dar El Glaoui. It would be extremely unlikely that this concerns two different palaces.

Happy to provide that quote tomorrow. TrivialPursweet (talk) 00:26, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

I think that sounds reasonably convincing, given the little we have to go on. I'm leaning towards using these details inline and noting the discrepancies of Cavender and Stétié in the footnote instead. More sources will be needed in the long run, but that's almost always true on Wikipedia.

If you don't mind, please do provide the quote from the second book mentioned (Grand vizir Madani El Mezouari El Glaoui (Le) : Une vie au service du Makhzen). That would be helpful either way as I don't have access to that book, and we can have all the author materials to consult here in one place. Whenever you have a chance (no hurry). (PS: There's no need to translate the quote from French or Arabic, if applicable.) Thanks again, R Prazeres (talk) 00:53, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Morning! See below, apologies there's a lot but I think it confirms it, including the misidentification. Dar El Glaoui in the French sources referenced, was Madani's house in Fès, in the Ziat neighborhood and was occupied by Regnault and then Lyautey himself. Madani's family including his son were living there [note that Haj Thami had no official function in Fès] and the house was previously owned by Omar Tazi. Note that there is a common trend or confusing Thami for Madani in Morocco. This is likely because Thami seized large parts of Madani's estate after his death in 1918, including, most likely Dar El Glaoui. I think the article also deserves a note that the house was previously known as Dar Tazi and owned by Omar Tazi, Grand Vizier, was then confiscated by his rival Madani El Glaoui, when he became Grand Vizier himself, was then occupied by Regnault, Lyautey, before being transferred to Pacha Haj Thami El Glaoui. This is probably the most accurate description. Happy to keep the reference to Cavender but to also note that others have noted the mistake. Below from Grand vizir Madani El Mezouari El Glaoui (Le) : Une vie au service du Makhzen, Abderrahman El Mezouari El Glaoui

Page 127: De plus , le sultan fit retenir en otage pendant près d'une année, dans le palais de Si El Madani à Fès, une partie de sa famille (dont mon propre père) [...]. Une partie de ce même palais fut réquisitionnée pour y loger Regnault et sa suite. Le Docteur Weisberger témoigne d'un fait survenu le 30 mars 1912: "en revenant du Palais, M. Regnault me trouva à la porte du Dar El-Glaoui. Il était rayonnant: C'est fait me dit-il, le traité est signé*319"

• 319

"Au Seuil du Maroc Moderne" by Frederic Weisberger p.270. "pour la petite histoire, mon père[this is Madani's son] nous relata qu'au soir de ce même 30 mars, alors âgé d'une dizaine d'années, il avait entendu les clameurs de la fête qui battait son plein dans l'autre partie du palais paternel pour fêter cette signature. Ce même palais fut ensuite occupé par Lyautey comme l'évoque le général Colin dans un article publié dans une à revue militaire "[this is sourced]. [..] Cette maison située dans le quartier Ziat*322 a une histoire: elle avait appartenu à Haj Omar Tazi, et fut confisquée par Si El Madani après le triomphe de la hafidiya.

• 322: c'est cette fameuse demeure que l'on visite aujourd'hui et qui est également attribuée par erreur à Haj Thami" END OF CITATION

TrivialPursweet (talk) 09:50, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Actually rereading Cavender it does seem she attributes it to Thami based on Maxwell, not through other sources. Given Maxwell attributes it to Madani as do the other sources I think we should strike that reference. However her thesis is interesting in terms of architectural descriptions and so those aspects are deserving of a reference? Just thinking out loud here. Thanks so much by the way for helping me learn the art of editing, will apply to other articles before I start making changes!! TrivialPursweet (talk) 10:37, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

That sounds about right! Thanks for taking the time to provide these quotes. I can try making some of these edits right now, so I can sort out the formatting details and make sure the citations are all lined up (so to speak) for WP:INTEGRITY. Like I said, I think we can just relegate the discrepancies from Cavender and Stétié to a footnote now; that way the main text of the article has an easy story to follow, but those readers who want to know more about other sources can be aware of any potential contradictions. When it's done, have a look and let me know if it needs more work or feel free to make some revisions/fixes. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 18:02, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Just a quick clarification, TrivialPursweet, about the quotes above: the statement "c'est cette fameuse demeure que l'on visite aujourd'hui et qui est également attribuée par erreur à Haj Thami" is from Abderrahman el Glaoui's book or from Weisberger's book? Can you confirm the page again for this segment? (The "319" and "322" numbers are confusing me here a little, I assume they're just copy-pasting artefacts?) Just need to sort out citations. R Prazeres (talk) 18:49, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres hi apologies, the quote you highlighted is from el Glaoui's book. the Weisberger references are in his book. the 319 and 322 are the reference numbers in the book. The relevant pages are 127, 128, 129. 2A01:4C8:1083:4313:941F:6E4D:A1DE:3698 (talk) 19:01, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres sounds like a plan. 2A01:4C8:1083:4313:941F:6E4D:A1DE:3698 (talk) 19:02, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Alright, it's finally done, pending further proofreading or revisions. Feel free to make any fixes to the wording. If you spot any major issue, let me know.

The only last-minute problem I realized is that, because one of the sources is written by a Madani's son, it may not be considered the best source per criteria of WP:RELIABLE, but that's why I've made sure to explicitly name him inline with regards to the one point where there is some discrepancy between the sources, so readers are aware of who's making that comment. Since the other sources aren't ideal either, as noted above, and since I think this isn't a major controversy, just a minor point of confusion, I think this is reasonable. The content should be explicit enough for interested readers to be able to judge for themselves. I hope this is an improvement! R Prazeres (talk) 19:46, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Think this is a huge improvement. Made two tiny edits, the author is the grandson of Madani (he references his father, Madani's son). As for Regnault he was plenipotentiary in charge of signing the treaty, and then resident, never technically "ambassador".

May I suggest one final edit in the intro to make the article tidier: I suggest to replace "It was originally constructed and owned by Thami El Glaoui, the pasha of Marrakesh at the time" with "it was owned by the Glaoui family, whose most famous members were the Grand Vizier Madani and his brother Thami, pasha of Marrakech and is located in the southwestern district of Fes el-Bali".

This bypasses direct attribution while explaining the name of the place. TrivialPursweet (talk) 21:37, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Oh absolutely. I was so focused on the history section I forgot to look at the lead, which should indeed reflect the current body of the article. I'll replace the sentence accordingly. Thanks for the other clarifications. R Prazeres (talk) 22:33, 13 February 2023 (UTC)