Talk:Dark Romanticism

Dark romanticism

Dark romanticism is a movement that begins with British writers such as Byron, while transcendentalism is an American movement of writers such as Emerson, Thoreau... Gothic Fiction is also from the time of the British romantic writer rather than American ones. ByronicLady 19:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Something needs to be changed here. --J.Dayton 00:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Would you suggest the Romanticism/Gothic Fiction tie in be expanded? Stcircumstance 23:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and the Anti-Transcendentalism bit should be removed. It just isn't accurate. Otherwise, nice article. --J.Dayton 17:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Poe

Correct me if I am mistaken but Edgar Allen Poe is THE Dark Romantic, is he not?

WP:NOR

As it stands right now, this article seems like completely original research in the sense prohibited by Wikipedia's guidelines. That is, it puts forth a novel set of historical ideas and interpretations, and synthesizes facts in support of this interpretation, in Wikipedia's own voice. I'm holding off on nominating the article for deletion, though, because I get the sense it is recapitulating some set of scholarly sources -- so the problem should be fixed by providing citations immediately, rather than reporting these interpretations as though they were simple facts. -- Rbellin|Talk 20:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I hope that in expanding this stub, I've solved the original research problem as well as addressed other points raised above. Stcircumstance 23:49, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Good work so far. I'd still like to see specific citations added, since the article is still doing a fair amount of literary-historical interpretation in its own voice. -- Rbellin|Talk 19:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. I will work on adding that aspect to the article in the near future. Thanks for your suggestions and I welcome any more advice you might have. Stcircumstance 21:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Feedback

I've completed my first set of revisions on this article, which consisted mainly of adding citations, adding pictures, and making the content a little easier to read. I may start on a second round of revising, so I welcome feedback on the article as it stands right now. Stcircumstance 14:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Hawthorne? Really?

Hawthorne was a Transcendentalist before he, well, wasn't, but I don't think he ever really became a kind of Dark Romantic. Even your first citation makes only a note to Poe as the Dark Romantic, while Melville produced one story (and not even one of his more notable stories) and Hawthorne no stories, at least, I haven't found an example yet.

I just feel like you're trying to make an argument here. You're supporting it, but it's still an argument. Poe is your only solid bet, and I like what you did with the Gothic tie in, but if I were you I would leave Hawthorne and Melville out of it. --J.Dayton 18:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, and I also have been troubled about including Hawthorne and Melville without better citations than I have. Still, my reason for including them in this article and under the Dark Romanticism category is two-fold. First, Hawthorne was referred to as such in an American literature course that I've taken <http://www.public.iastate.edu/~mielke/Archived/English362.pdf>. Second, various scholarly Web sites either refer to them as such (http://www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/markport/lit/amlit1/fall2002/10hawth.htm) or strongly suggest as much without labeling them dark romantics (http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/oal/lit4.htm - "Although Melville's novel is philosophical, it is also tragic. Despite his heroism, Ahab is doomed and perhaps damned in the end. Nature, however beautiful, remains alien and potentially deadly. In Moby-Dick, Melville challenges Emerson's optimistic idea that humans can understand nature.")

Would you prefer noting that some of each author's works are works of dark romanticism, rather than that THEY are dark romantics themselves? Stcircumstance 23:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Anti-Transcendentalism

Is the poorly supported link between Anti-Transcendentalism and Dark Romanticism. Hawthorne certainly had a lot to say about Transcendentalism. He would certainly fit into the Anti-Transcendental category, but did Poe really say much about Emerson's movement? He died in the 1840s, let's not forget, and American Transcendentalism wasn't really a strong presence until around then. I mean, Nature was published in 36', but it took a while for the movement to come together, and Poe was certainly writing before it even existed.

I like what you did with Dark Romanticism. I just don't understand how it equals Anti-Transcendentalism. --J.Dayton 18:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you on this point. The term anti-transcendentalism was part of the article when I first began working on it, and I left it there. I have seen it referred to elsewhere, but I personally don't know a lot about it. Would you suggest removing it? Stcircumstance 23:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and I now see that you did remove it, but you have still left in reference to a Transcendental root (even if it is a root of opposition) to Dark Romanticism. I just know that it's true.--J.Dayton 02:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Additions?

I don't how to do it without reverting to a "see also" list, but just to point it out - E.T.A. Hoffman could do with a mention here somewhere. 88.105.121.63 (talk) 12:38, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Modern Dark romanticism??

Hey! does anyone know where this awsome genre went?!?! Seriously, though.. It would be helpful if this page gave examples of modern works of Dark romanticism (if there's such a thing). --♫ Chris-B-Koolio ♫ ... (Talk) 02:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

AFD time surely?

Observations about the weaknesses in this article have waited almost four years to be addressed, so we can surely assume it's not going to happen. I haven't checked reference 1 (I can do so later this week), but unless that does the job, the article has not one reliable source on its main topic. Most of the references deal with side issues like transcendentalism. The Thinkquest links are mostly dead; one which isn't - 11 - is clearly a self-published web-page put together by some students. A reliable source it is not. Reference 10 does at least use the term "dark romanticism," but I am skeptical that a page on a library website is reliable either, and in any case it describes only a small group of British writers.

I was led to this article by other Wikipedia articles (e.g. Herman Melville), using the term then linking back here. And thus an supported claim is spread.KD Tries Again (talk) 05:12, 6 December 2010 (UTC)KD Tries Again

Per the result of the [discussion], we return to the talk page. I will delete the parts of the article which are not supported by reliable sources. Editors who are interested will find some suggestions in the AFD discussion as to how the article might be developed.KD Tries Again (talk) 05:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)KD Tries Again

Once again a puzzling "result", but here we are again. I will restate my suggestion that we should make this a redirect to Gothic Fiction as the terms are clearly synonyms. We should reflect the Thompson use of the term there and also the material relating to German Romanticism, which would help enhance that article.--SabreBD (talk) 08:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Goethe and Schiller?

In German Studies these authors are not regarded as Romantic authors, though both had a pre-Romantic ('Sturm und Drang') phase early in their lives. If the article wants the reference to 'possibly the most famous writer of the romantic movement (sic), Johann Wolfgang von Goethe' to be taken seriously a very strong case would need to be made with solid backing from a range of reliable sources. The notion that Goethe and Schiller are Romantic (or even romantic) authors is a notorious high school student blunder, usually based solely on their dates of birth and death, and does the article no credit whatsoever. Norvo (talk) 01:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

This is not an American movement!

As is clear from Mario Praz's authoritative study published in 1930, dark and sinful and satanic themes in Romantic literature long predate the American interest in such themes, even by Edgar Allan Poe. Moreover it was Praz himself who baptized this literature "dark Romanticism". I have corrected the article accordingly!Wwallacee (talk) 13:20, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

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Wiki Education assignment: Art History Survey 2

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 February 2022 and 16 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Giqhhq (article contribs).

Requested move 16 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian (talk) 19:56, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

---

Dark romanticism → Dark Romanticism – The title should be capitalised as it is the name of an artistic genre. Ngram shows Dark Romanticism is the more common title by a considerable margin Medarduss (talk) 22:02, 16 December 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. echidnaLives - talk - edits 09:11, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

• oppose per WP:NCCAPS—blindlynx 23:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  The second word is a proper name so I don't see how that applies here. Medarduss (talk) 10:33, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

  it's the name of movement that according to out MOS isn't capitalized, see:MOS:MOVEMENT—blindlynx 20:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Shwcz (talk) 04:21, 18 December 2022 (UTC) wp:sockstrike – robertsky (talk) 14:27, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. MOS:MOVEMENT is a load of crap frankly, & always has been. The section on capa in Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Visual_arts#Text_issues is much better and also part of the MOS. Try decapitalizing "Impressionism" or Renaissance and see how long that lasts. Johnbod (talk) 04:37, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Relisting comment: To form a clearer consensus echidnaLives - talk - edits 09:11, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nomination and overwhelming uppercasing found in the n-gram proof. Second Johnbod's motion that MOS:MOVEMENT is a "load of crap frankly", and specifically the sad Wikipedia case of lowercasing the Civil Rights Movement which pertains specifically to a society-changing series of events largely organized by the same people between 1955 and 1968. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:58, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
• Weak support. A quick spot check of the article refs and Google Scholar does seem to suggest that "Dark Romanticism" is the most common capitalization, but I'm hesitant to put too much stock in the nominator's Ngram. First, the usage gap narrows considerably when "dark romanticism" is included (as opposed to simply comparing "Dark Romanticism" vs. "Dark romanticism"); second, I find myself wondering whether the "Dark Romanticism" numbers are buoyed by title-case appearances. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:16, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dark Romantic or Gothic

I'm confused about the difference between dark romantic and gothic, which seem (from the description) to be extremely similar. The only distinguishing feature mentioned in this article (twice!) is that dark Romance has secret societies and gothic art doesn't. Is that it?!

I feel like anyone coming to this page with no knowledge of dark romanticism (a term I first heard today) will have the same question. I've always just heard Poe bracketed with the gothic. 82.42.161.198 (talk) 12:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Artworks?

Several of these artworks are not attributed properly, merely given the name of the museum and the size of the painting. I can't correct them because I don't know who painted them! But they should have proper attributions to the artist.2601:5CC:C900:345:45BE:2903:4625:140A (talk) 13:51, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Done, though the names were in the text. Johnbod (talk) 00:30, 12 October 2024 (UTC)