Talk:Das klagende Lied

Song of Lamentation

@Gerda Arendt: Do you think that 'Song of Accusation' might be a better translation? I've always thought that the flute raised a Klage in the legal sense.

Such an idea would need sourcing. But, there's no rule against a footnote saying that a well-known translation might be wrong. Narky Blert (talk) 20:35, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

You mean like "Anklage"? Never thought of it that way, rather lamenting, mourning. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:46, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps better still – include both translations to reflect the ambiguity between Klage/klagend. ("Nun führ' ich Klage wieder Elsa von Brabant" usw.)

The story parallels the The Golden Spinning Wheel (Dvořák), and probably other stories also. Narky Blert (talk) 21:22, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Royal Opera House? - But I thought more about it, all "klagend" I know are lamenting, the others being "anklagend". See de:Klagelied. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:43, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced that ein klagendes Lied is the same thing as ein Klagelied.

"Ach Spielmann, lieber Spielmann mein, das muß ich dir nun klagen" has the primary meaning of lament. However, the catastrophe in Part III isn't the result of a lament (in English, a lament is usually, perhaps always, fruitless).

Mahler made a good decision when he chose to set original Wunderhorn texts rather than writing his own. His Songs of a Travelling Salesman stand up well as music, but less so as poetry. Narky Blert (talk) 22:29, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

I am convinced that Mahler just wanted to be more original than wanting to use the very common phrase Klagelieder, which in German has a biblical connotation, Klagelieder Jeremiah, the Book of Lamentations. Making the songs the mourners, not the singer, very clever ;) - songs wouldn't accuse, they don't know law. - Perhaps we do need a better English word than lament, because it's really about missing someone lost. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:25, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Let's leave the article as it is! If you and I cannot think of a better translation, I doubt that there is one. Any reader who is interested in the topic can read our learnèd discussion on this page.

I've also come across The Doleful Song, which strikes me as perhaps the worst translation of the lot. The obsolete English noun 'dole' meant sorrow or grief, a synonym of 'dolour': more Schmerz than Klage.

I see that Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen has a short section on the problem of translating that title. I wonder if Mahler was consciously or unconsciously writing an alternative conclusion to Die schöne Müllerin?

Do you know Vaughan Williams' Songs of Travel? Narky Blert (talk) 18:06, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

No, sorry, only From the Bavarian Highlands :) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:42, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Citation

This page includes information from the Mahler Foundation website, but I don't know how to add the citation, so perhaps someone could do it for me? Thanks. https://mahlerfoundation.org/mahler/compositions/das-klagende-lied/das-klagende-lied-versions-and-premieres-2/ - 147.161.215.34 (talk) 04:01, 23 August 2024 (UTC)