Talk:Dasius of Durostorum

Saturnalia relevance

regarding this,

note the absence of scholarship from the last hundred years that is actually informed about Roman religion; and actually, this is a highly dubious source because of its martyrological purpose

The point that "this is a highly dubious source because of its martyrological purpose" was raised already back in 1897, and I hope the article reflects the fact. I share your scepticism on whether this reflects "the Roman Saturnalia" at all. But this text is special in two respects, (a) it is an account of a Diocletian case that is actually ancient, i.e. can reasonably be assumed (and still is so in recent scholarship) to be based on a historical account compiled within living memory of the event, and (b) this isn't just standard martyrological literature, for the very reason that the text's origin is older than the development of such a 'genre' around AD 600. It is very atypical in giving great detail about the alleged pagan ceremony.

Now the ceremony is not "Roman", it is performed by Roman soldiers (most of whom will be of local origin, not of Italian birth) in Moesia. The reason why I came across this saint in the first place is because I was reviewing Bulgarian material on the Kukeri custom. I also cite Venedikov (1983), 1983 being less than 100 years ago today, who emphasizes the continuity of the ceremony described in the text with contemporary Bulgarian folklore. I would also suggest that Prescendi (2011) contains scholaship very much "informed about Roman religion". The essay contains a lot of good material which I just have not had time to summarize yet.

I am the last person to take Frazer at face value, and I only cited him because he gives a more detailed account of the text of the Acta than I could find anywhere else. As soon as I find the actual text of the Acta, preferably in translation already, I will replace the lengthy Frazer quote by excerpts from the text itself. I certainly have no opinion on his speculations regarding human sacrifice. Already in 1897, the question whether the human sacrifice to Saturn was historical was treated with much scepticism. The point is that we here have a near-contemporary account of the Saturnalia as celebrated more Thracico, which if nothing else is valuable information on the question of continuity in Bulgarian folklore. I think it is worth pointing out that the date, lunar phase and day of the week given in the text are consistent. I do not pretend that this fact proves anything beyond that whoever wrote the Greek text was capable of accurately calculating the Julian (and lunar) calendar of the 4th century. It is still unusual that such a text gives not only the date but also the weekday, lunar phase and time of day of a martyr's execution.

I came across this saint in passing, and intended to create a quick stub entry. When more and more material popped up, I sort of heaped up references. The current revision of the article therefore could do with some copy-editing, it is certainly far from satisfactory, but at least it presents a good selection of sources available to online research. --dab (𒁳) 13:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but do note the date: November 20, nearly a month before the Saturnalia, on the dies imperii of Diocletian. I hadn't added Dasius to Saturnalia for the very reason that its relation to the festival is tenuous, and thus requires so much contextualization that it acquires undue weight. But I've tried to present views on its value as evidence for the Saturnalia now at Saturnalia#Human sacrifice, though I don't have time at present to obtain the best sources. I'm actually glad of all the material you've contributed, and please excuse my snippy tone. Saturnalia attracts a lot of wild conjecture, and my response owes more to habit than thought. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:18, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I see, and I agree with you that the link to the Roman Saturnalia is tenuous. Nevertheless, this is about "Kronos", and it is a record of a festival in late antiquity, so it bears mention under the heading "Saturnalia" for whatever it is worth. As the Bulgarian scholars like to point out, it is perfectly possible that we have here a local "Thracian" custom that has precious little in common with the Roman Saturnalia other than the name.

The date 20 November is the date when D was executed for refusing to play Saturn for a month. Which means that the actual sacrifice to Saturn would have been closer to 20 December. So I do not see a problem there. --dab (𒁳) 07:38, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

It does seem more likely that this is a local "Thracian Kronos," even though Lucian and Athenaeus, for instance, translate Saturnalia as Kronia when they plainly mean the Roman festival. It also makes sense to imagine Dasius in the scenario the article sets forth: suddenly in the year 303 edicts start getting issued that make demands on Christians who had formerly served in a kind of "don't ask, don't tell" environment. If the first edict came out in February, they'd already had a pass for the vota pro salute imperatoris in January. Things would've come to a head on Diocletian's own dies imperii, which was celebrated with sacrifices and perhaps a renewed sacramentum—on November 20. So it still seems more to the point that Dasius is killed after he refuses to take part in Imperial cult, not as a direct result of his refusal to play along with the "Kronia". Having read only the snippets presented by secondary sources, I don't know what to make of the proportion of the text devoted to the "Kronia", but the religious circumstances at Durostorum seem consonant with those surrounding the papyrus military calendar from Dura-Europos known as the Feriale Duranum, which is full of Imperial birthdays and anniversaries, along with a limited number of traditional festivals that were part of Roman state religion, but which was found in a setting with plenty of evidence for active local religious practices. Unfortunately for this article, the feriale is missing November and December almost entirely. This paragraph sounds sensible (in Candida R. Moss, The Other Christs, OUP, 2010). Auguet has his usual kind of take, but one that complements Coleman's view (noted at Saturnalia#Human sacrifice). Fowler here notes that Wissowa also found no reason to connect this episode with the Saturnalia. Versnel here suggests that the element of human sacrifice actually develops in this later period, and is neither a primitive "survival" nor a mere fiction of Christian polemic. Although I haven't secured a source yet, there seems also to be scholarship arguing that the mockery of Jesus by Roman soldiers was a Saturnalia; I'm guessing this argument involves the question of why the Nativity is placed in December, and answers by pointing out that the dies natalis celebrated for some saints is the day of their martyrdom—which still strikes me in the case of Dasius as driven by the geared-up campaign of persecution in the guise of of military discipline, with the local festival just the initial incident that blows open the door to Darius's particular closet. To crash in a mixed metaphor. But thank you for an interesting discussion.Cynwolfe (talk) 22:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)