Talk:David Bednar (general manager)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:David Bednar/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Edge3 (talk · contribs) 21:38, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello. I'll review this article. Edge3 (talk) 21:38, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

A few preliminary comments:

• Please expand the lead section as per WP:LEAD. Ideally, the lead section should summarize the main points of each section of the article.
  • Expanded.
• I revised the lead sentence: "David Bednar is the general manager of the Canadian National Exhibition Association, the organization that runs the Canadian National Exhibition." However, I still think it seems awkward to say that Bednar is the GM of the organization that runs the CNE. Maybe it would be better to simplify the sentence by saying: "David Bednar is the general manager of the Canadian National Exhibition." What do you think?
• "Bednar was raised in Dallas, Texas, son of a petroleum engineer, and grew up with the State Fair of Texas." -- How does one "grow up" in the State Fair of Texas? The sentence is also awkwardly phrased, and I think you should mention the fact that his parent is a petroleum engineer in a separate sentence.
  • Changed.
• "He moved to Canada in 1970 as a student, before moving to Quebec to major in theatre and minor in business at Bishop's University." -- Quebec is in Canada, and he studied in Quebec. It's odd to say that he moved to Canada as a student before studying at a university in Quebec.
  • I was sure that one of the sources indicated he moved to another province in Canada to study, before heading to Quebec, but alas, I can't find it. Simplified the wording.
• What is a "landed immigrant"?
  • It seems this is a Canada-only term. It refers to permanent residency. I've linked to permanent residency in Canada, is that enough?
• "He worked at the Quebec City Summer Stock Theatre and Festival Lennoxville, and repairing telephones for Bell." -- The last part should say "repaired telephones for Bell". Regardless, I'm not sure whether this sentence is important. What was the nature of his work experiences? None of these organizations have links to WP articles, so are they significant? If not, then I suggest removing the details.

• I've added a link to Bell Canada. Festival Lennoxville does have a Canadian Encyclopedia article, so I'd suggest it is notable, just too far out of our existing contributors' scopes to have an article yet. The Quebec City troupe is certainly less notable, but the whole reason for mentioning both of these entities is to show is determination to make it in the theatre world. At least within theme parks, many people in the executive level started as a kid, sweeping during the summer. I don't know whether this exists in the professional fair world, but it establishes that his success with the CNE wasn't his original career goal.

• Why does this source have the title "Best friend a bacon milkshake ever had" in the inline citation?
  • The article appeared in the newspaper with this headline. Do I switch to the web headline?
• There are repetitive references to the subject's GM job in Pantages Theatre. First, there's once sentence that says: "He became the general manager of Pantages..." The next sentence says: "As of 1997, Bednar was mentioned in the press as general manager of the Pantages Theatre." Please consolidate this mention to discuss it only once.
• In the "Personal Life" section, there are two references to Bednar being an "antique car buff".
  • Cleaned up, by deleting first reference.

These are my only comments for now. I'll continue with additional comments after you address the issues I raised above. As you can see, I have already identified many issues with grammar and style, so I encourage you to take another look at the rest of the article and make some copyedits before I continue, so that we can focus on other aspects of the GA review. Thanks for your contributions! Edge3 (talk) 21:58, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I am concerned that this article does not meet our notability guidelines, so I have filed an AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Bednar. I am failing this GA review, pending the resolution of the AfD. I would be happy to review the next GAN if the AfD is closed as "keep". Edge3 (talk) 22:41, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:David Bednar/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: CorporateM (talk · contribs) 03:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I've started reviewing the page and will need some time to complete a first look. CorporateM (Talk) 03:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I see in the first review user:Edge3 suggested notability may be an issue. I've scanned some of the sources and do not believe this to be a problem. CorporateM (Talk) 03:43, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

First look

• "Joining theatre production company Livent in 1989"
• "he managed Toronto venues such as"

• Many thanks for all the rest of the instances in this list, but I'm not sold on this change. The list in the lead/lede is exhaustive, but "such as" suggests it's just a selection.

"Joining theatre production company Livent in 1989, before it was spun off into its own operation. (period instead of coma) He managed the Toronto venues the Pantages Theatre, and the North York Performing Arts Centre, and the Ford Center for the Performing Arts..." CorporateM (Talk) 14:41, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Realizing now the Pantages Theatre was officially The Pantages Theatre. Removed "the" from North York.

• "for the fair." which fair? I presume it's referring to the Canadian National Exhibition, but this is the first time a fair was mentioned.
  • switched to CNE
• "He made operational changes (what?) programming changes (what?)
  • referenced internet's effect
• He is very present in media for the CNE (can we add this abbreviation to first reference up top?)
  • added
• "including during negative situations"
  • fixed, and reworded further
• Do we have any sources for his birthdate?
  • "Gedeonova, Alena" is referenced.
• the last reference is a bare url
  • Yes, just seeing that. That was someone else, I've replaced it with a different source and more info.
• "He notes said"
  • I've gone one step further and just say that "He attended", deleting the bridge. Either of the above makes it sound like this is speculative.
• "remained in Canada to marry " Did he stay for the explicit purpose of getting married? It sounds like you may have meant something else.
  • I've reworded, but I think that might have been a possibility, that it was that literal, that love kept him here. I'll try and dig up the source again.
• "He joined the Live Entertainment Corporation of Canada, Inc. (Livent) in 1989,[4][3]"
  • Fixed.
• "mentioned in the press" This kind of thing can generally be omitted. The press are our sources, but we do not report on them themselves, except in certain rare cases.
  • Removed. I was including that because it's possible that he was under the radar in the intermediating period, or that he moved to Pantages years before that reference. It's almost a circa date of the start of his employment.
• "but it was suggested he should delay his personal swearing until a CNE" can we spell out what we're talking about RE CNE?
  • How's that?
• I'm not sure we need to list each car he owned.
  • Simplified. It's just a curiosity that he's been interviewed multiple times about his love of cars, in articles unrelated to the fair.
• "after he retires
  • Fixed.
• Suggest something like "Bednar is retiring in the spring of 2015. Current assistant general manager and director of operations, Viriginia Luby,will be his successor for the upcoming 2015 CNE." (two sentences)
  • Split, worded slightly differently. Removed the 2015 CNE bit; while she'll run 2015, it's still planned by him.
• "severances" -> "severance payments"
  • Fixed.
• the first paragraph of the Canadian National Exhibition section is confusing. What is "1997 Ex"? We probably don't need to list each executive individually as it is only of tangential relevance to the article-subject.
  • Removed, agreed. At some point I'll be working on the fair article itself, I think I was mostly parking the info there.
• In 2010, Bednar told the Star:"
  • Reworded, is that what you were thinking?
• "Behind the scenes, Bednar has overseen the addition of" This sentence appears unfinished.
  • Yeeeee.
• "including in response to negative events," this feels a bit awkward. Maybe we can find a different way to word this.
  • Better?

In general, some of the details in the article about individual statements he has made don't seem significant. CorporateM (Talk) 03:54, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

@CorporateM: How's it looking now? The good memory/bad memory quote, if that's what you're refering to, pretty much defines public perception of the CNE since the 1960s, every GM has had to deal with the older generation saying the fair isn't as good as before, so this is a more relevant comment than may seem. -- Zanimum (talk) 23:32, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Looks good. I've gone through it sentence-by-sentence now. Mostly very small things. I think it needs a lot of copyediting and trimming though. One of the pieces of feedback I always get during GA reviews is writing for an audience that has no familiarity with the subject. Also, it feels a bit too detailed, including individual comments or facial expressions he made that may or may not be of any particular significance to his life story. Let me know if you have any questions. CorporateM (Talk) 00:35, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Lede

• "Bednar was chairman of the Yonge Street BIA during the initial planning of Yonge-Dundas Square." There are some terms in here I'm not familiar with. They are wiki-linked, but some kind of describer like "the performance", etc. would be useful. CorporateM (Talk) 23:58, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I've replaced the Yonge Street BIA with the organization's proper name, in full, which seems more self explanatory. While the square is used for performances, not sure what you're referring to by "the performance".
• "notably repositioning the fair's role in the age of the Internet." What is meant by this? CorporateM (Talk) 23:59, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I refered down to the article itself, and used the continuation to rewrite things.
• "Automotive Building" Can we wiki-link it? CorporateM (Talk) 00:00, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Linked to the Allstream Centre section of the Exhibition Place page. I'm not thrilled by the summary in that article, but it's there and clean, so I don't object to linking to it. (I think I have a draft namespace article on the building, but that's neither here nor there.) -- Zanimum (talk) 22:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Early career

• Maybe "Early life and career" since him being born is not relevant to his career; up to you though. CorporateM (Talk) 00:03, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Changed.
• "Bednar attended the State Fair of Texas while growing up CorporateM (Talk) 00:03, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Changed.
• I prefer to not have red-links, but it's entirely up to you CorporateM (Talk) 00:03, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
• Just something to watch, try to avoid using "He" too many times in a row and switching it up with the BLP's last name. CorporateM (Talk) 00:04, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
• "to prepare it for Show Boat" -> To prepare it for "the show/fair/event/skit Show Boat" CorporateM (Talk) 00:05, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Clarified, and I've changed the wikilink to point to the Show Boat#1993 revival
• "and that of Ragtime" same. "the show Ragtime" or "the fair Ragtime" etc. CorporateM (Talk) 00:06, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Significant rewording.
• Same with "He would later wince publicly at the previous administration's Boomer pavilion at the 1996 CNE, which included a booth for arranging your own funeral.[11]" CorporateM (Talk) 00:10, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I'm unclear one what part of that sentence isn't clear. Bednar spoke publicly that he didn't like a pavilion created by the previous administration; the pavilion let you arrange a funeral.
    • Oh sorry, I meant that I wasn't sure this was really a significant event for his biography. It sounded like it was just a comment he madeCorporateM (Talk) 20:32, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
      • I've reworded this to note he openly criticized previous administrations... is that more on topic? The reference is intended to highlight that he is candid when necessary, against the bureaucrat stereotype.

Canadian National Exhibition

• I'm not sure what "Exhibition Place" or "Ex" is and the relevance of the financial information is to the BLP; presumably he was tasked with a bit of a turnaround? CorporateM (Talk) 00:08, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Explained that it's the grounds; unlike the current transition to Virginia Luby, which is a smooth transition initiated by retirement, Bednar was dropped in, to clean up shop.
• I think this section needs some re-writing/trimming to make it more neutral, concise and relevant. I can't say for sure exactly which changes are needed, because it's possible some material that seems irrelevant to me just requires more explanation or context. Here's an example of a quick copyedited version for the first two paragraphs, which is half the length and removes stuff like "plummeted", "awry" and "wince". Also, we do not need to include individual comments, reactions, etc. if they are not of any substantial significance to his biography. Here's a quick take of how I might combine the first two paragraphs into one.

Extended content

Bednar was hired by the Canadian National Exhibition in 1998. He said he was being paid less than his predecessor, who was one of five departing executives that the company had to make large severance payments to. When Brednar joined, the 1998 fair was already "all planned out and well on the way". He would not answer questions about what direction he would take the event the next year. The following year, CNE starting promoting its events on weekends, something there was previously a policy against, allowing corporate partners to offer discounted or free ticket promotions. This led to a 7 percent increase in admissions, but a large reduction in revenues. According to _____ the crowding and traffic of the event discouraged potential customers from continuing to visit the event in the final week.

• • Okay, I've used your revamp as a jumping off point, but it's still a little longer. I've also introduced a notes section.
• "While revenues and attendance are cited in the media, the fair also has a "family fun index", based on behavioural research.[13]" This is a bit unclear. What is the family fun index? CorporateM (Talk) 00:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Reworked this section, with additional citations.
• "Bednar has cited the rise of the Internet as a factor in refocusing the CNE on "community celebration", as opposed to the future.[13]" This sentence is a bit unclear. I think you may be referring to the fair's "theme"? CorporateM (Talk) 00:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • It's a little more than theme. It's more of an undercurrent, than something that can be expressed in sales materials. I've revisited the source, and reworded the sentence... is it closer now?
    • Are these quotes being used because they are the fair's official slogan? I think what you mean is something like "he changes the theme's fair from focusing on the future to building community. He said the change in focus was due to the impact the internet had on growing communities" Is something like that correct? CorporateM (Talk) 04:15, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
      • No, they're slogan is "Let's Go To The Ex", they're in quotes because that's how Bednar worded their strategy. I have no idea whether this is the wording that the CNEA uses in reports to the City of Toronto (owner of the corporation). Not necessarily connected to how communities grow, but it's more along the lines that you'd previously learn of a fantastic new technology in the newspaper, but then the first place you'd see it in action was at the CNE. Now, you see it in action on YouTube, or the like.
• "traditional audiences" What is meant by this? If possible, it would also be great to explain SuperDogs and Bandshell, but I see how it might be hard to do. CorporateM (Talk) 00:23, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I've linked to the Bandshell section of Exhibition Place, and added the word "stage". SuperDogs is now described as a "animal variety performance". Finally, I've changed it to the CNE's "traditional", older audience.
• "Bednar has suggested that, if "it's a good memory, we can't live up to it; if it's a bad memory, we can't live it down."[15] He has stated the CNE's maintenance of agricultural-related programming is important to increase public awareness of local agriculture.[16]" This feels like unnecessary filler. Is this quote of special significance? CorporateM (Talk) 00:24, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • The agriculture part is important, as that was the original focus of the fair, over a century ago. Most Toronto residents can go years without going past a farm, as the area around the city is so large and developed, so logically there's little use for the displays, so the fact he's stood behind the exhibits (which offer no direct way of profiting) is of note in my mind. I've reworded the rest, as a conclusion. The reason I had selected the quote is that it's an uphill battle for anyone to run the CNE. No matter how successful it is, Torontonians have a tradition since the 1950s at least of poo-pooing the fair as less than before, as opposed to just acknowledging it's a different fair for different times, and that if it had stayed the same, it wouldn't work. Torontonians reading the article will connect this to the acknowledged defeatist attitude the pervades the city. The quote itself is now pushed down to the end of things as a note.
• "Bednar has featured heavily in the Ex's public profile" This sentence is a bit unclear. CorporateM (Talk) 00:24, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • How's it now? It's just that a.) the local theme park, Canada's Wonderland, the GM there is almost invisible from a public perspective, it's always the communications staff doing media appearances, and b.) very few civil servants are invisible, unless they themselves are the centre of a controversy.
• "telling the Toronto Star that "you have to confront these things head on. There's no point in trying to hide behind excuses or covering up or any of that kind of stuff." He notes the fair has credibility with the public, maintained by this upfront approach." -> Suggest something like "He advocated that the company discuss the issue directly and claimed doing so would increase the fair's credibility with the public." CorporateM (Talk) 00:27, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Changed, but using the word "corporation". The CNE is part of the City of Toronto, so it's not a company, but it is an independently registered corporation.
• Personally, I would prefer his planned retirement be at the bottom of this section. CorporateM (Talk) 00:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Agreed. The current placement is via 173.32.150.22

Personal life

• I believe our Manual of Style only requires abbreviations be spelled out once for the entire article, but personally I prefer spelling it out at the beginning of each section (RE CNE), especially because this is not a common acronym like USA. Up to you though. CorporateM (Talk) 00:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Changed.
• "The Citizenship Oath was administered by Bill Withrow, C.M., longtime director of the Art Gallery of Ontario and great-grandson of John Withrow, the CNEA's first president" Is this information that significant? CorporateM (Talk) 00:30, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Would you mind if I created a footnotes section, and moved it there? Traditionally, a civil servant is used, so the fact that they found someone with the Order of Canada and a CNE lineage is of interest to CNE fans.
• "buff" Would prefer a different word like "collector" or "has an interest in", etc. CorporateM (Talk) 00:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Changed.

External links

• I think social media links are usually discouraged. Does he have an official bio or website we can link to instead? CorporateM (Talk) 00:32, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • This occasionally active Twitter account is it.

Note that, in the process of double checking that there were no official webpages devoted to Bednar, I discovered an article that I had overlooked. I've made a few changes, including adding a third reference for the cars. -- Zanimum (talk) 20:21, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your patience. I've moved to a place of my own, and haven't subscribed to the internet there, so it's only random times that I can sit an revise. -- Zanimum (talk) 19:07, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

No problem. Let me know when you're ready for me to continue the review. CorporateM (Talk) 22:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

@CorporateM: I'm so sorry that this has taken so long. I think I've caught everything. -- Zanimum (talk) 21:27, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Second lookthrough

Looks good! We're getting close. A few more comments. Also, let me know if you have any comments about the edits I just made.

• "it was spun off into its own operation" -> "it spun off in <date>" (do we have a date?
  • I was able to find info on the execs purchasing their department from Cineplex, and added it to the later mentions.
• This sentence continues to be awkward and confusing: "Notably, he repositioned the fair's role to "community celebration", from its traditional focus on innovations, as the Internet supplanted that role." Are we referring to the the fair's theme?
  • I've totally reworded it, how's it now?
• "Bednar was hired by the Canadian National Exhibition in 1998,[3][2][8][11] " THere's actually a few too many sources here. Can we trim a couple?
  • I've got rid of one so far. Reference 11 is a correction to reference 8, and so I've collapsed them into each other. Is that okay, or did I just create a mess?
• "during a period where both the CNEA and Exhibition Place grounds would face losses or slim profits." We should avoid metaphors like "face losses" and "slim profits". I'm also confused by the tense "would" was "were" intended?
  • How is "during a period where both the CNEA and Exhibition Place grounds had low profitability or loose money."?
• "unique selling proposition from "[selling] the future" to the experience and "community celebration" What about something like "In response to the proliferation of the internet, Bednar changes the fair's theme from the future to community."
  • How's the middle ground I used?
• what is meant by the CNE's "traditional" older audience?
  • When Canada's Wonderland opened in the 1980s, the CNE lost some of its youth audience to them, because suddenly moveable roller coasters paled in comparison to permanent looping coasters. It's rebuilt it youth audience, but the older audience is the most loyal, the ones that come every year, simply because they've always come every year.
• "Bednar has featured heavily in the Ex's public profile, including in response to a children's inflatable ride accident in 2001.[20]" Is there a way to get access to this source? I can't find it.
  • I can email this to you, or perhaps upload to dropbox. It's available as a PDF through a library subscription service. (There is also a web-based preview, but no mention of Bednar... http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/thestar/doc/438325860.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Aug+20%2C+2001&author=Barahona%2C+Federico&pub=Toronto+Star&edition=&startpage=&desc=Children%27s+ride+closed+after+two+injured+%3B+Four-metre+fall+from+%27Titanic%27+investigated)

CorporateM (Talk) 03:35, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Can you just provide an excerpt from the source supporting the article-text? Might be the easiest way. CorporateM (Talk) 19:58, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Okay, @CorporateM:, how's it now? -- Zanimum (talk) 19:46, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi @Zanimum: I have passed the article. I didn't feel that last straggling item was sufficient to delay a GA status, but I'd still like to take a look if you have a chance. Nice work! CorporateM (Talk) 00:20, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Hooray, thank you for your thorough and patient review, I'm extremely grateful for your review.

I'm tapping away on a tablet right now, so it's easier to upload it to Google Drive than type it. It's not the terribly epic a story or response, but it's something you'd normally see a pr person replying to instead.

Https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4IOKvI99XhqVWs5Q2drWU51aVU/edit?usp=docslist_api

Thanks again for the review, much appreciated! -- Zanimum (talk) 21:25, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Yah, I think that sentence should be trimmed. The source does not appear to directly support the article-text, so it's basically OR or SYNTH. The source just quotes David a couple times and isn't of much use for the article. CorporateM (Talk) 03:25, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, this fell off the radar. I've simplified the section a bit. -- Zanimum (talk) 17:25, 30 March 2015 (UTC)