Talk:David Rogers (musician)

Regarding my Draft of David "Feet" Rogers Biography

Hello,

You declined the publishing of my article about David "Feet" Rogers.

Granted, I'm attempting at writing my first article in Wikipedia, with the intention of adding David "Feet" Rogers Biography as a Hawaiian Musician to wikipedia.

Sons of Hawaii has its own wikipedia page where David "Feet" Rogers is listed as a member. Why cannot there be a Wikipedia article on David "Feet" Rogers should someone be interested on finding out more about him?

Feet has a documented and verifiable body of music recordings, and is well known part of Hawaiian musical history within Hawaii. There are people the world over who love Hawaiian music and Feet's playing and may never know who he was. Adding his biography to Wikipedia is my attempt to correct that for the benefit of posterity.

Please include your personal definition of "significant coverage" and "reliable independent sources". My sources include Wikipedia itself with article mentioning David "Feet" Rogers, credits on Allmusic.com, the University of Hawaii's database, as well as independent article written by others about Feet. Those sources meet my understanding of "significant coverage" and "reliable independent sources"

David "Feet" Roger is indeed mentioned in other articles accepted on Wikipedia. Is Wikipedia not significant?

I submitted the article, and Wikipedia said it can take up to 3 months to be verified, and you shot it down 18 minutes later. I can't help but conclude that you did not take a good enough look at the references, and just made a quick judgment call. Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 16:47, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to include the link to the article:

Draft:David "Feet" Rogers#Biography

I'm just surprised that I wrote the article and it was declined so quickly, and I'm going through this process so soon. Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 16:49, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

There is also SIGNIFICANT mention of David "Feet" Rogers in the book "Kika Kila: How the Hawaiian Steel Guitar changed the sound of modern music" by John W. Troutman.

Maybe I can include more references from that book. Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 16:57, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source. Allmusic is not an independent source, YouTube and databases are not reliable sources. the Sons of Hawaii is in VERY poor shape too! "Kika Kila: How the Hawaiian Steel Guitar changed the sound of modern music" by John W. Troutman sounds a much more promising source.Theroadislong (talk) 16:58, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Ok great, I agree that the Kika Kila book by John Troutman is a promising source, as Mr. Troutman is a music historian and curator of the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History.

I will GLADLY reference as much material from that book as I can to hopefully meet your standard.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-hawaiian-steel-guitar-changed-american-music-180972028/ Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 17:04, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback, I am including as much information from John Troutman's book as I can into the article right now.

I do, however disagree with you that AllMusic is indeed an independent source. They're the current music industry authority to credits on music recordings as far as recording performance credit as well as songwriting credit.

If they are not considered an independent source as an authority, then how can anyone verify performance and songwriting credit for recorded musical works? Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 17:23, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

We are not looking for verification or credits, AllMusic is just a database, Wikipedia needs to see that he passes the criteria at WP:NMUSICIAN. Theroadislong (talk) 17:27, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

While I'm glad that the pushback you're giving me is making my article stronger and more likely to be accepted, I do have to wonder the following:

You said Wikipedia itself is NOT a reliable source. That means none of the information on Wikipedia is reliable. If that's the case, why are you making it so hard for me to create an article about an important, yet obscure musician that I don't want history to completely forget?

As I'm re-reading this book I have by Johnathan Troutman, is the only reason why he is a reliable source because of his accolades? In effect, he is doing the exact same thing I did: go directly to the people in Hawaii who knew the subject matter and relay their words and experiences.

But since he works for the Smithsonian, he has clout. I get that I'm just a person with a username.

In reality, Mr. Troutman interviewed the exact same people that I know personally: Alan Akaka, and Bobby Ingano. I talk to each of them weekly.

Bobby was Feet's student. I'm Bobby's student.

I have the exact same access to Alan and Bobby that Johnathan Trout did, and I have the same ability to curate this information that I want to share to the world, and the exact same chances to get things right or wrong. The only difference is he wrote a book and works for the Smithsonian.

The only difference is that I want more of Feet's specific contribution to be available to the world through the platform of Wikipedia. I don't even care about writing credit. Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 18:00, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Feet DEFINITELY passes the criteria of WP:NMUSICIAN

1. 6) Is an ensemble that contains two or more independently notable musicians, or is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles. This should be adapted appropriately for musical genre; for example, having performed two lead roles at major opera houses. Note that this criterion needs to be interpreted with caution, as there have been instances where this criterion was cited in a circular manner to create a self-fulfilling notability loop (e.g., musicians who were "notable" only for having been in two bands, of which one or both were "notable" only because those musicians had been in them.)

--Gabby Pahinui and Eddie Kamae are both independently notable musicians whose body of work speak for themselves, AND are significant contributors to American music history. Feet played with both of these gentlemen.

1. 7) Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability.

--Feet's Hawaiian lap steel style is the TRUE AUTHENTIC traditional Hawaiian lap steel. It's a national treasure of American Folk Music History. Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 18:06, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, Feet's contribution to American Music History is no less significant to someone like Muddy Waters. It's just that while Feet's Musical contribution was known, felt, and heard, Feet himself is likely to fall into obscurity. I'm just trying to do my part in being a torch bearer to the next generation of Steel players who might want to know about Feet.

Having a short Wikipedia article would be a great start. Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 18:12, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

After reading Wikipedia's policies, I'm confident that David "Feet" Rogers meets all of Wikipedia's criteria for notability, reliability, and significance.

I just have to convince you, or some other wikipedia editor of those facts. Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 18:17, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)@Thepublicschoolmusician #6 does not apply because the draft is not about an ensemble; it is about an individual musician and none of the current sources cited supports he meets the criteria (see also WP:BANDMEMBER). The most in-depth source is Steel Trappings but it does not meet the reliable source guideline as it appears to be more of a community forum or blog with no evidence of editorial oversight or history of fact-checking. S0091 (talk) 18:33, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

@ talk page stalker, #6 DOES apply. It clearly states "Is and ensemble....OR is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of 2 or more independently notable ensembles."

Feet Rogers fits the latter definition of #6 as he was an original member of the Sons of Hawaii through many renditions over the years as members passed away, AND he was a member of the Maile Serenaders as well.

Furthermore, my most in depth source is the book "Kika Kila how the Hawaiian Steel Guitar changed the sound of modern music" by John W. Troutman. John Troutman is curator of music and musical instruments at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History in Washington, DC.

His book won the following awards:

AWARDS & DISTINCTIONS

2017 Lawrence W. Levine Award, Organization of American Historians

2017 Sally and Ken Owens Award, Western History Association

2017 Best History, Best Research in Recorded Popular Music, Association for Recorded Sound Collections

2017 Music in American Culture Award, American Musicological Society

Woody Guthrie Award, International Association for the Study of Popular Music-US Branch

https://uncpress.org/book/9781469659091/kika-kila/ Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 21:17, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Feet Rogers was a prominent member of the Sons of Hawaii, and the Maile Serenaders.

Verification can simply be made by looking at the covers of the albums in which his name is credited. Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 21:23, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Maile Serenaders has no article so not clear how they are notable Sons of Hawaii is VERY poorly sourced and would probably fail an WP:AFD as not meeting WP:NBAND. Theroadislong (talk) 21:23, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/519S5HB0APL.jpg

https://www.amazon.com/Folk-Music-Hawaii-Sons/dp/B00000INSR/ref=sr_1_1?crid=HIZ4IB4QZQD8&keywords=sons+of+hawaii&qid=1688853270&s=movies-tv&sprefix=sons+of+hawaii%2Cmovies-tv%2C96&sr=1-1-catcorr

If you just look at the cover of this music album, you can see David "Feet" Roger's Face and name on it.

It's empirically observable!

Since you will not accept Allmusic.com, what other "sourcing" standard will satisfy you?

His obituary and other news articles I posted clearly state that he was in the Sons of Hawaii. Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 21:57, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

https://www.amazon.com/Hawaiis-Favorite-Slack-Steel-Guitar/dp/B000250UM6/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2AMCR6POV9L6Q&keywords=slack+key+and+steel+guitar&qid=1688853452&s=movies-tv&sprefix=slack+key+and+steel+guitar%2Cmovies-tv%2C75&sr=1-3-catcorr

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51jMob7IuZL.jpg

This album cover "Slack Key and Steel Guitar" clearly states that David "Feet" Rogers played on the Album and the group was the Maile Serenaders.

It's also empirically observable.

How else can I "source" this to satisfy you? Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 21:59, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

@Theroadislong.This whole process is ridiculous.

You yourself told me that Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source. According to that same logic, none of the articles on Wikipedia have reliable sources either?

This is all empirically observable things with quick google searches.

I can buy any Sons of Hawaii music album, and David Feet Rogers will be credited on it, but that's not enough proof to satisfy Wikipedia? Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 22:02, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

The reason why David Feet Rogers is notable is because the Sons of Hawaii were THE preeminient Hawaiian music band in Hawaii.

Eddie Kamae himself said, "Hawaiian music without the steel is not really Hawaiian music."

There is only ONE steel guitar player in any Hawaiian group, and David Feet Rogers was the Steel guitar player for the pinnacle of Hawaiian music groups. Out of all the steel guitar players that could be considered, he got the job. That is most certainly notable.

Furthermore, Feet was selected as the featured steel guitar soloist on the National Geographic's "Music of the World Series" for Hawaii. THAT is most certainly notable. Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 22:08, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

I am not doubting that he was a member of Sons of Hawaii but that doesn't make him notable especially as that article is VERY poorly sourced and wouldn't pass WP:NBAND. Theroadislong (talk) 22:03, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

The reason why David Feet Rogers is notable is because the Sons of Hawaii were THE preeminient Hawaiian music band in Hawaii. The Sons of Hawaii were crucial to the Renaissance of Traditional Hawaiian music in Hawaii.

Eddie Kamae himself said, "Hawaiian music without the steel is not really Hawaiian music."

There is only ONE steel guitar player in any Hawaiian group, and David Feet Rogers was the Steel guitar player for the pinnacle of Hawaiian music groups. Out of all the steel guitar players that could be considered, he got the job. That is most certainly notable.

Furthermore, Feet was selected as the featured steel guitar soloist on the National Geographic's "Music of the World Series" for Hawaii. THAT is most certainly notable.

Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 22:09, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

I just don't get it, Alan Akaka has his own wikipedia page. He's a lap steel guitarist in Hawaii who is still alive, and Alan has NOWHERE NEAR the discography that Feet does.

How can Alan Akaka be more notable than Feet Rogers when Feet clearly has the discography and pedigree? Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 22:12, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

In regards to my sources, I did include the Book by John W. Troutman, curator of American Music history at the Smithsonian.

I included articles from the University of Hawaii.

I included articles from Newsources.

How can you say that it is very poorly sourced? Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 22:16, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

I said that the Sons of Hawaii article was very poorly sourced. You need to read up on what notability means on Wikipedia, and also WP:NMUSICIAN. Theroadislong (talk) 22:42, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

David "Feet" Rogers own face is listed on multiple Sons of Hawaii Album covers as is his name. How else can one prove he was a member of the Sons of Hawaii to meet your standard? Does someone need to write an article that he was in the Sons of Hawaii? If so, then his obituary says that, which is included.

I did read the notability guidelines on Wikipedia and WP:NMUSICIAN. David "Feet" Rogers most certainly meets criteria mentioned in there.

If I use Alan Akaka's Wikipedia as an example, Alan's wikipedia page has only 4 references, one book, and 3 local online news articles from Hawaii.

Arguably, Alan Akaka is less notable in his role in Hawaiian Steel Guitar than David "Feet" Rogers, yet Alan has a Wikipedia page.

In order to pass muster, should I just simply the article and use only book sources and news articles and obituaries? Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 17:50, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Also, to increase NOTABILITY, David "Feet" Rogers is a 2019 Honoree and Inductee to the Hawaiian Music Hall of Fame.

That is very NOTABLE and SIGNIFICANT, don't you agree?

https://hmhof.org/honorees/ Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 19:11, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I fixed the Sons of Hawaii Source, by sourcing his obituary.

Other than empirically looking with your own eyes at album covers to see David "Feet" Rogers face and Name, I know no other way to prove that he was part of the band.

It sounds like your issue is with the source, not proving that he was in the band.

Does changing the source from the Sons of Hawaii website to his obituary satisfy Wikipedia's requirements? Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 20:04, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I added the fact that Feet is a 2019 inductee to the Hawaiian music Hall of fame and was also the featured steel guitarist on an National Geographic album in 1974.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUFTYUpli6E

In addition to what I have already written about him, those two facts should put David "Feet" Rogers over the top in satisfying the requirements for notability and significance. Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 20:08, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I double sourced Sons of Hawaii corroboration with 2 published books with 13 digit ISBN numbers.

Furthermore, I sourced the Maile Serenaders link with a new published book I just added. Thepublicschoolmusician (talk) 01:36, 13 July 2023 (UTC)