Talk:David Watts Morgan

War service

The ODNB article seems to have simplified his service history alittle. I think I'm basically there with the London Gazette entries, but his medal card [1] throws a few more spanners in the works. This lists his date of first entry into a theatre of war as 6 December 1914 (qualifying him for the 1914–15 Star), and indicates that he also served as a second lieutenant in 2 Pack Artillery Brigade before going to the Welsh Regiment (note that this was the official spelling at the time of the First World War, curiously, the archaic "Welch2 spelling was not adopted until later (the 1920s I think). This of course is a primary source, as would be his service record, if it survives. The other oddity is his final rank. As I've mentioned, at retirement in 1919 the Gazette describes him as major, as does the entry for his CBE. However, the entries confirming his later returns to Parliament do describe him as Lt-Col, so possibly he took another commission later, but I've not been able to track this down. I've had a quick look for a service record via http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/officerbritisharmyafter1913.htm?WT.lp=rg-3105 and there doesn't seem to be one (there is one for a lieutenant D W Morgan, but I suspect this is the chap in the Vetinary Corps I came across while trawling the Gazette). However, this could also support the idea that he had further service later on, as records for those with service after about 1923 are still with the Ministry of Defence. David Underdown (talk) 09:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

On his retirement rank; in Chris Williams' Democratic Rhondda (1996), it states '...and a retiring promotion to lieutenant-colonel.' This is referenced in the publication as taking this source from: Glamorgan Free Press 27 Jan. 1916, 9 Aug. 1917; Rhondda Leader 12 Jan. 1918 Western Mail 24 Feb.1933. Not sure if this helps any.FruitMonkey (talk) 10:26, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Hard to see how the 1918 and earlier refs could shed any particular light on this, the 1933 Western Mail might. I'll maybe see what the Army Lists say later on. I also have a book all about Cambrai, I'll see if he gets a mention. David Underdown (talk) 10:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Having browsed through several editions of the Army List from the early 20s I have a theory, though I can't entirely substantiate it. Into early 1921 he his listed (still as a major) as (County Council) representative on the Glamorgan Territorial Association (this was responsible for the local administration of the Territorial Force under the chairmanship of the Lord Lieutenant). I think he may have been given honorary rank as lieutenant-colonel when he stepped down from this position. David Underdown (talk) 14:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Just been to the library and found out a bit more. In the Glamorgan County History: Vol VI Glamorgan Society 1780-1980, he is described in the 1929 General election when he stood against Arthur Horner as 'Major D. Watts Morgan'. Your argument is beginning to take shape. We don't need to be precise about the date of his final promotion but we should challenge the Oxford account which appears to have taken from previous presumptions. FruitMonkey (talk) 16:09, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Scrap that, I just misread the notes, it was not at the 29 election. FruitMonkey (talk) 16:16, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

From the London Gazette search results, it appears to be at the November 1924 election that he is first styled Lt-Col http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/exact=david+watts+morgan;sort=oldest/start=1

Hmm, The Times, Friday, Apr 27, 1923; pg. 15; Issue 43326; col E "Court Circular" has him attending a (Royal?) wedding and styles him Lt-Col, while The Times, Monday, Nov 20, 1922; pg. 4; Issue 43193; col C "The New House Of Commons. Complete List., Constituencies And Parties." gives him no rank at all (though other MPs are listed with rank), though The Times, Friday, Oct 27, 1922; pg. 8; Issue 43173; col A "The General Election: "The Times" List Of Candidates." does style him Lt-Col. Aha, The Times, Friday, Jun 03, 1921; pg. 6; Issue 42737; col B "House Of Commons. Thursday, June 2." has him as Major, while The Times, Saturday, Jun 11, 1921; pg. 6; Issue 42744; col A "Parliament. The Plumage Bill., Deceased Brother's Widow Bill., House Of Commons." has Colonel. So taht seems to pin it down, and from memory is consistent with the last mention I found in the Army Lists. David Underdown (talk) 16:35, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Your Sherlockian (is that a word?) eye for detail strikes again. Is there any chance you could condense your findings to put a nail through the Oxford misconceptions? FruitMonkey (talk) 16:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps something like "reports in The Times refer to him as Major Watts Morgan until early June 1921, but from 11 June 1921 the reports have Lieutenant-Colonel Watts Morgan. However, someone really picky might say we'd need to refer to every single mention of him! I see also that Hansard still calls him Major on 24 June 1921 http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/people/lieut-colonel-david-morgan/1921 though by 28 April 1922 (which seems to be the next time he spoke in the house) he is Lt-Col http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1922/apr/28/government-of-wales-bill#S5CV0153P0_19220428_HOC_89 Though I can imagine they use consistent styles for the hwole of a session of Parliament. David Underdown (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Spelling of the cemetery "Llethr Du"

A reader writes to Wikimedia with a claim that the spelling of the cemetery "Llethr Du" is incorrect. I've informed the individual that they should contribute to this discussion with an explanation, ideally supported by an RS. --SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:52, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Maybe, the Oxford Dictionary Biography linked to this site states Llethr Du, but other sites use the spelling Llethr-Ddu. Just to make matters worse this website provided by the RCT local government uses both in the same breath. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:23, 4 February 2013 (UTC)