Talk:David Zimmer

Requested move 19 May 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Number 57 15:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

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• David Zimmer → David Zimmer (politician)
• David Zimmer (disambiguation) → David Zimmer

– addition of parenthetical qualifier will enable subject's proper placement among others named "David Zimmer" at the David Zimmer (disambiguation) page. Subject is a legislator on the provincial level, with no specific indication or claim of national prominence. Most disambiguation pages do not have a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and there is no such need here. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 23:55, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The other two entries are valid for a dab (they meet MOS:DABMENTION) but only just, and they are not notable. Boleyn (talk) 06:31, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose As per Boleyn. Might agree with move except there is no other article by this name. All references point to this article. EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 13:22, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. Neither of the other 2 entries on the disambiguation page even have their own articles. Zarcadia (talk) 22:18, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. the choice of a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC should not be a default position of singling out the sole entry which has an article. Each disambiguation page has entries with varying degrees of notability, but the majority of those pages do not highlight a primary topic. To find examples, one may visit such dab pages as Charles Brown (74 entries) or Robert Williams (69 entries), neither of which has a primary topic. Surely some of the Charles Browns or some of the Robert Williamses are more notable than others, but none have been proposed as primary topics. On the other hand, John Williams has been chosen as the primary topic over 151 other John Williamses at the John Williams (disambiguation) page. As these examples indicate, a primary topic should evolve as a result of discussion and consensus, rather than being forced upon a disambiguation page simply because all the other entries on it are just MOS:DABMENTIONs. Such a method would only provide the least-low-notable among low-notables.

Also, as far as this page's MOS:DABMENTIONs are concerned, there appear to be 4, rather than just 2:

 • David Zimmer (politician) (born 1944), Canadian provincial legislator elected in 2003 balloting; Ontario Liberal Party member of Legislative Assembly of Ontario, representing riding of Willowdale in North York area

 • David Zimmer (born 1984), American lawyer who won Best Oralist and Best Overall Team member titles in Harvard Law School's 2008 Ames Moot Court Competition and, following graduation in 2010, served as law clerk for United States federal appeals court judge William A. Fletcher and, in 2012–13, for Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan (List of law clerks of the Supreme Court of the United States (Seat 3))

 • David Zimmer, American political figure who was the Natural Law Party's candidate for Missouri's 8th Congressional District (United States House of Representatives elections, 1996)

 • David Zimmer, fictional academic who appears in two novels by American author Paul Auster: as support in 1989's Moon Palace and as lead in 2002's The Book of Illusions

 • David Zimmer Gallery, New York City exhibition space which, in 2006, hosted wide ranging media installation depicting Culture of Algeria

—Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 03:23, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, so I took a look at the two examples you mention. In the case of Charles Brown, 68 of 74 entries have their own articles. For Robert Williams, 62 of 69 entries have their own articles. It is clear from these two examples that the large majority of commonly named articles presents a good case for having the disambiguation page as the undisambiguated name. In the case of David Zimmer only 1 of 3 entries has an article. If we apply your two new examples that would be 1 in 5. In the Zimmer case the large minority of entries points to only one article. Therefore there is still no case to be made for making 'David Zimmer' as the disambiguation page. EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 04:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

There still remains the matter of establishing a consensus. There is no controversy regarding the existence of the David Zimmer (politician) article — the argumentation is centered upon its positioning as the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The question came to the fore in 2009 {Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Zimmer (disambiguation)}, three-and-a-half years following the creation of the David Zimmer (disambiguation) page in 2005, but there was no consensus for its retention or deletion, thus it remained. If this proposal is adapted, the page would, of course, still remain, but without the qualifier "(disambiguation)". It is simply about establishing a notability standard for primary topics. At some future time, regardless of the current vote outcome, the matter may be revisited if or when another David Zimmer warrants an article. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 04:59, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The AfD discussion was about the page when it had a primary topic (politician) and one other entry. Per WP:2DABS, hatnotes are preferable in that situation, and that is what the AfD discussion centred on. It does not remain to develop a consensus; no one agrees with you (the only thing that is needed is to leave it open for a week or so in case others wish to contribute.) You've talked a lot of pretty irrelevant stuff about other articles. The question here remains: are users more likely to search for the politician than the others put together? Is the politician more notable than the others? The answers are yes and yes. Boleyn (talk) 06:22, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I did not refer to the 2009 AfD discussion to bolster my position, having pointed out in the following sentence that "[I]f this proposal is adapted, the page would, of course, still remain, but without the qualifier "(disambiguation)"." It is appropriate, however, to inform those who may be unaware that such earlier discussion, concerning one of the pages that is proposed for change, did occur. So far "no one" consists of you and two others. There may or may not be additional "Oppose" votes and there may also be "Support" votes. It is too early to prejudge the outcome. As for irrelevance, it is in the perception of the beholder. In addition to the guidelines, other disambiguation pages serve to provide references and examples as to the proper approach regarding matters at hand. The truly relevant question is not whether the politician is more notable than the others, but whether the politician is sufficiently notable to warrant placement as the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 07:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - with the suggestion that, given that this is the second time this has happened recently, the nominator reads up on requested move protocol and stops using his or her personal opinion on the relative importance of jobs as a justification for a move request.

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

External links modified

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• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://elections.on.ca/NR/rdonlyres/AB409CCD-84F3-46FA-B3BD-39AB659EFC2D/0/SummaryofValidBallotsCastforEachCandidate.pdf
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Ontario Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation eliminated

This ministry has just been eliminated and its function combined with other ministries under Greg Rickford. This and several other WP pages will need to be updated. Davemck (talk) 03:22, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

References