Talk:Dawson College shooting/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Images

Hmm the images are blur, not nice, really --TheFEARgod (listening) 20:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think taking sharp pictures was high on the to-do list of anyone present. --Qviri (talk) 20:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Three of the images were just hazy, and needed some radius=~5 unsharp mask to clear it up. Sorry if I oversharpened them at all. --Interiot 21:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I have a clear photot from Canadian Press at Image:Dawson-college-cp-1850805.jpg. But, it does not have a licence. Please, someone find the appropriate licence and integrate it into the article. DO NOT add the inage intil the licence is found. -- Reaper X 21:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Could someone move the PD licenced pictures to Commons so they can be used in other Wikimedia projects? Thank you. --Julián Ortega - drop me a message 22:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Yah, I'll go ahead and do that for the three I put in, they are on my computer, if someone else could get the other two that would be great. --Gregorof 00:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually is anyone else capable of doing that? No Login for Commons/confused what to do. --Gregorof 00:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I found some photos here: http://vladimireremin.russianmcgill.com/dawson_shooting/ Via this link: http://community.livejournal.com/montreal/1674656.html?thread=12497312#t12497312 Could we consider adding these images to the gallery? Thanks Zaatar 05:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

additional references

I'm using these references, but it doesn't fit in the "cite" schema

• CINW AM 940 News newsradio 13 September 2006 news coverage
• LCN newschannel 13 September 2006 news coverage
• RDI newschannel 13 September 2006 news coverage
• Newsworld newschannel 13 September 2006 news coverage
• Newsnet newschannel 13 September 2006 news coverage
• "CTV News" CTV Nightly National News 23h00 13 September 2006
• "The National" CBC News Nightly National News 22h00 13 September 2006
• "CFCF Pulse News" CTV CFCF-12 Nightly News 23h30 13 September 2006
• "Global Quebec News Special Report" Global TV Quebec 23h00 13 September 2006
• Montreal government news conference, 22h00 13 September 2006
  • Mayor, Police Commissioner, Urgences-Sante director, MGH spokeswoman, Dawson representative - attending.

70.51.11.242 03:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for listing them here. It would be useful. I think I removed something like this from the article because I thought it would be better to provide a link to articles instead. --HappyCamper 03:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

How would you link to a TV broadcast? 70.51.11.242 03:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Um...I haven't seen too many of those on Wikipedia. You could probably just add the link directly to the article. For example http://www.wikipedia.org . If you put this in a single set of square brackets then it shows up as [1] - or you could even do Example of linking to an external site. --HappyCamper 03:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Except it's a TV broadcast, so it's not a website. 70.51.11.242

Oh, you mean referencing a TV broadcast itself? I don't know about that. TV broadcasts are often recorded, and they have reference numbers associated with them, along with the date and such. I suppose it could be referenced in that manner, but you'd need to do a lot of legwork. I think it would suffice to find a webpage that states the name, like the one at the bottom of the page right now. --HappyCamper 03:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

That would be work, for the "continuing news coverage" of the 4 TV news channels (LCN, RDI, Newsworld, NewsNet) and the 24-hr news radio station (940 News). I'm not sure where to look for that. 70.51.11.242 04:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...the last time I did something similar to this, I looked this up in a catalog in some audio visual centre, and then made a phone call to confirm the reference citation. But today, I'm a bit lazy to do that. I think I'm going to give this article a rest for today and come back to it a bit later - there's bound to be more news about this incident as the investigation progresses. --HappyCamper 04:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

hi, here's another reference with new info -- a french quebec online daily. i'm listing it here hoping that someone who's been ranking sources in the main article will know where to put it, and be able to add the info below. it's in french and i don't know wikipedia policy on sourcing news in another language. it states that the shooter is from Laval, that some hospitalized students weren't hit by gunshots but suffered injuries from the panicked crowds, and that police were on the scene so quickly because they had been called by the school to come for another unrelated matter when they saw the gunman. -- Denstat 07:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• * Matinternet: La fusillade au Collège Dawson fait deux morts et 19 blessés (Olivier Caron)

What the reference *is* stating

Global News said...

Anastasia De Sousa was killed on scene. She's a student, first year, at Dawson, her body was left at the scene (unlike the suspect). She was shot in the abdomen.

Global Quebec News Special Report 23h00 13 September 2006

I don't see why this was excised.

70.51.11.242 03:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't find other sources to support the claim, so I removed it. I don't think that it's widely known, and it's better not to be too speculative (or so it seems). --HappyCamper 03:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not speculative. They interviewed De Sousa's family. Global is a major TV network in Canada. The Quebec TV station is called "Global Quebec". I can't see how it would not be widely known in Quebec (where the shooting occurred). In Quebec, people would have seen the news broadcast on television. 70.51.11.242 03:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Local news coverage would always be better and more current than wire services, and have more indepth coverage. TV broadcasts are always more indepth than their companion website blurbs. 70.51.11.242 03:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

We already have info in the article from some interviews on LCN. I don't see anyone vetting those for crossreferences, even though the only people who watch LCN are in Quebec. 70.51.11.242 03:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright, found it - this mentions it. --HappyCamper 03:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've integrated it with that website in the summary section. 70.51.11.242 04:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Great editing. --HappyCamper 04:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

reference...

How'd you reference the Montreal news conference that was staged at 22h00 in Montreal with Mario Tremblay, SPVM commissioner, Urgance Sante leader, Dawson representative, MGH representative, done in French and English? 70.51.11.242 04:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• It was broadcast live on multiple sources, that's my reference point. 70.51.11.242 04:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes there are transcripts of news conferences published. I've seen them come up maybe a few days after the broadcast, perhaps because people want to make sure everything written matches what was said. --HappyCamper 04:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah hah! This should be it: [2] - I assume "Communiqués" is what we are looking for? Maybe you could add this to the article? --HappyCamper 04:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Not really, the news conference contains information not in the communique. The English and French statements were slightly different, and the Q&A expanded on the statements alot. 70.51.11.242 04:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• MUCPD response time: 4 min
• Urgence-Sante ambulance service response time: 6 min
• over 400 calls to 911 in the first few minutes
• Police already on scene to deal with a drugs call
• Police learned to use different tactics after the 1989 Poly massacre. Instead of securing a perimeter and waiting for SWAT, police now secure a perimeter and enter - not waiting for SWAT.
• Police exchanged fire with gunman, and shot and killed him.
• MGH is just up the street from Dawson (if you look on Google maps, you'll find it's 5 blocks "north". Montreal Children's is 3 blocks "south" of Dawson)
• Lots of ambulances and police because Dawson is downtown, where many are stationed.

- from newsconference 70.55.85.6 13:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Age of CEGEP students

The age range for those attending Dawson College have fluctuated quite a few times already. Do we have a good idea of what it should be at the moment? I've seen numbers ranging from 16-21 if I recall correctly. Is this right? --HappyCamper 04:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Dawson College is a junior college + prepatory school + community college. Taking typical entrance age, would be 17. But the upper end would be mid-20s. Since it's a CEGEP, it actually takes all ages, so you will find retirees taking courses or doing programs. So 17-25 would be a better age range. The Pre-university stream students are more likely 17-21, but when I was in CEGEP, one of my classmates was 30 and I was pre-university. 70.51.11.242 04:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

CEGEPs =>

• preuniversity = Grade 12+13+14 + Univesity year 1 (some year 1 anyways)
• vocational = technical college
• community college

dawson has a lot of international and mature students, which pushes student age ranges upwards as well, as well as some continuing education programs given its community college aspect. i agree with 70.51.11.242's comments about the general range. -- Denstat 06:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Dawson College (a CEGEP) offers both pre-University programs and professional programs.

- Professional programs are a 3-year program designed for for people coming directly from high school (High School ends at Grade 11 in Quebec), or for older people wishing to gain a skill trade.

- Pre-University programs are a 2-year program for people coming directly from high school, that wish to go University. The most direct route to get into a University in Quebec is to complete High School and then complete this 2 year CEGEP degree (you can't apply to University directly out of High School).

Professional students are generally aged between 17-25, with some much older. Pre-University students are going to be between 17-20, with much fewer being older. If I had to ballpark it (my ex went to Dawson a year ago, so I've spent a lot of time there), I'd say 90% of students are aged 17-21. JeffyP 21:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Reports of second shooter.

The sources showing reports of a second shooter appear to predate the following articles published by Canadian media (Despite the sensationally titled Sydney Morning Herald's contents. Cute... "punk killer".)

• The CBC: last updated 7:39 EDT
• The Globe and Mail: last updated 11:21 EDT]
• CTV: last updated 11:28 pm has no mention of a second shooter.
• The Montreal Gazette: no time shown but it also says "lone gunman" and makes reference to a 9pm call to the family.

- BalthCat 05:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

FTR a student with what looked like a small mowhawk said he looked "punk". 132.241.246.111 05:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, as well as the first eyewitness interviewed on CBC Newsworld on Wednesday. I also heard a CBC reporter relay that the g-word (goth) had been dropped by some witnesses. I wasn't implying they made the title up out of his hairstyle, it was labelling him the sensational title of 'punk killer'. A mohawk does not a punk make. And it's jumping to conclusions about the person based on a hairstyle, and doing so to be sensational. (C'mon, you can feel it can't you?) I find it disrespectful to the tragedy and damaging to those punks (I'm not one, FTR) who don't go around shooting up schools. - BalthCat 06:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought he was a goth! Won't Dan Marsala (Story of the Year), Alex Varkatzas (Atreyu) and Matt Heafy (Trivium) be disappointed? When I saw this article using Microsoft Internet Explorer last night (I was using Mozilla Firefox most of the time), I thought that either Jeff Hardy, Bam Margera, or even Marilyn Manson was to blame, as well as Vince or Shane McMahon. If it was either one of them, I would suggest Jun Kazama or Paul Phoenix from the Tekken series break their arms and hit them with 10-hit combo strings until KO'd "perfect!" because of this horrible incident! (Sorry, that was my entitled opinion.) All in all, this was very tragic, and it didn't hit me until I was watching Mad Money whilst browsing the Internet. I hope the gunman got what he deserved! --D.F. "Jun Kazama Master" Williams 17:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The shooter - possible link to his blog

Globe and Mail - "Montreal La Presse identified the gunman as Kimveer Gill of Laval, north of Montreal"

[3] This is a online profile of fatality666 who identifies himself as Kimveer. "His name is Trench. You will come to know him as the Angel of Death . He is male. He is 25 years of age. He lives in Quebec. He finds that it is an O.K place to live. He is not a people person. He has met a handfull of people in his life who are decent. But he finds the vast majority to be worthless, no good, kniving, betraying, lieing, deceptive, motherfuckers." The page goes on to describe the results of various quizzes, some of the results identifying him as "suicidally depressed" and "most likely to commit murder", it also says he wants to die in a "hail of bullets."

[4] This is the blog. Last entry September 13, 2006, 10:41:am.

UPDATE: [5] Image gallery showing fatality666 with mohawk, trenchcoat and rifle.

Not sure if this should go in the main article yet...

Amygdala 06:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it confirmed by the mainsteam news media? If so then yes I believe it should be. Canadian-Bacon ^{t c e} 06:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Globe and Mail, La Presse - these *are* mainstream media. It's the equivalent to USA Today and New York Times, respectively. 70.55.85.6 13:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

On a side note, combing through this blog is really creepy. "Last logged in: September 13, 2006, 10:35am". Gives me chills Canadian-Bacon ^{t c e} 06:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't allow original research, but if that is the guy, hell yeah. That is some good original research, and it deserves to be in the article. ♠ SG →Talk 07:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Problem? No piercings... - BalthCat 07:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course that was just witnesses. He does appear to have a black Pontiac... if I'm not mistaken? - BalthCat 07:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

the globe cites la presse saying a pontiac sunfire, and that he's from laval. also the source i found above (see additional references) also says laval. i can't reach this site but found it by googling kimveer gill: http://www.gothmetal.net/calendar/dayview/2005/8/16 -- Denstat 07:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

http://vampirefreaks.com/picview.php?user=fatality666&uid=718193&c=49&x=55&d=0&g=1&s=0&fid=0 "Haha nice clothes you have here.^^ Hope you don't use your gun to shoot at anyone xD"--130.245.197.183 08:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[6] Here is a media report about the blog. Wonder if they found the link surfing Wikipedia?.. I guess this means the links can be put up on the page. Amygdala 08:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Good catch. I've added it to the article. --Kizor 10:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It's now referenced on several sites (found via google news). Most of his profile has been removed. --130.245.197.183 10:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

"Wonder if they found the link surfing Wikipedia?" Note that indeed an American journalist on the John Mark Karr case early in the going added his name to the Ramsey article, before it was released to the public as being the suspect's name. The press does seem to frequent us for this sort of stuff. Or they could've just Googled it themselves. -- Zanimum 19:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Important

This blog belongs to the ALLEGED shooter. Keep in mind that the police have not confirmed his identity, let alone the website. As such, write your additions to the article accordingly.

Anyhow, I've cleaned up the article massively, hopefully it's in a much better state than before. The vandalism should die down for a bit, since we are now in the wee hours of the morning here in Montreal. But stay on alert, we've got 8000 students with no school tomorrow. Where do you think a lot of them will be? ♠ SG →Talk 09:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Having interned as a reporter at the Ottawa Sun, yes I can definitely confirm that Wikipedia is more than "just another resource", it's where the majority of their reporters turn when writing a story. Typically news reports "wind down" in the last couple paragraphs, so a story about Castro's failing health will end mentioning how he became famous, or his family life, or some other "trivial" facts - those come almost exclusively from Wikipedia, in my experience. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 14:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

the blog has been removed. censorship prevails once again in the world.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.187.172 (talk • contribs) 11:43, September 17, 2006

I'm sure it has nothing to do with an ongoing police investigation or sensitivity to the victims... --ElKevbo 17:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Weapons

There doesn't appear to be any information on the weapons used by the suspect. Does anyone know what he was armed with? It would be notable especially because weapons were restricted after the Ecole Polytechnique Massacre. Apparently he had a semi-automatic weapon. REN 08:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

If that blog above is his, it's this rifle: http://vampirefreaks.com/picview.php?pic_id=8536089&user=fatality666&uid=718193&title=My+Rifle&c=41&x=55&d=&g=1&s=0&fid=0 --130.245.197.183 08:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

According to a caption on the same site, it's a "CX4 Storm Semi-Automatic Carbine".--130.245.197.183 08:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Multiple news media are reporting that he was believed to be carrying 3 firearms. Eye witnesses have said they've seen "AK47", "Laser Rifle", "SWAT army rifle", "handgun", "machine gun", "automatic weapon", "semi-auto", and a gun in which he "had to press a button to reload". Additionally, the police have found additional ammunition in the car he was driving, but did not state the type of ammunition. Some of the witnesses interviewed have mimicked the sounds of the gunfires they heard or otherwise describing the rate of fire, and they are consistent with fully automatic weapons, and 3-fire bursts.

According to CBC Newsworld Morning time broadcast, he had three weapons

• Handgun
• Shotgun
• Baretta CX4 Storm semi-auto rifle - http://www.cx4storm.com/

I think the CX4 is illegal in Canada... but I can't find it specifically on the banned list. 70.55.85.6 13:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Canadian gun laws:

• http://laws.justice.gc.ca/cgi-bin/notice.pl?redirect=/en/C-46/SOR-98-462/82866.html
• http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/info_for-renseignement/factsheets/r&p_e.asp
• http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/SOR-98-462/82866.html

70.55.85.6 13:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

La Presse is presently indicating the shooter's weapons were all legal and properly registered, via a fairly time-consuming process:

• • • http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20060914/CPACTUALITES/60914187/5032/CPACTUALITES

The article says that Gill had a membership in a shooting club (apparently in relationship to firearms training that is part of the prerequisites for owning the restricted weapons he did) and had to fill out three pages of detailed questions. Three guarantors must vouch for the applicant and the local police investigate the applicant's background; then the applicant must wait a month for the Firearms Register to make its decision. The article states that the weapons were (pardon any translation errors) "a semi-automatic Beretta CX-4 Storm rifle, a 45-gauge 9mm Glock, and a Navinco (Chinese) HP-9 456mm shotgun with a 13-inch barrel" and that the shooter carried nearly 1000 bullets (rounds?) in the bag he had on him. It notes that the Beretta semi-automatic has a 10-bullet (round?) charger that can be emptied in seconds and recharged equally quickly.

Damn. Lawikitejana 04:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"Three guarantors must vouch for the applicant" - maybe somone should find these irresponsible fuckers. 84.69.97.30 11:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The victim's place of death

There's been significant confusion over whether Anastasia DeSouza died on the scene or at the Montreal General Hospital. The article has stated both more than once. Can I ask for references to prove this one way or the other? --Kizor 10:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

SPVM Press Release in french. The victim (which name has NOT been released died on the scene. Sorry, the SPVM did not release this in english yet. --Deenoe 11:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

From CBC and CTV national nightly news, Sept16, she was shot and died in the atrium. 70.51.9.229 05:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The number of injured

I'd fix this myself, but I'm forced off the computer. The number of victims is inconsistent: the introduction speaks of 19 injured, the victims section of 20 admitted to hospitals. The latter is likely from the time when it was thought that DeSouza had died at Montreal General. The number of critically injured also fluctuates, though it does the same in the media. --Kizor 12:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia should be proud of itself

Very good wiki collaboration on this in the past day. I suggested the Signpost does an article on this topic. My take on some key strengths(cursory examination, I may be naively wrong on some of these).

• Rapid response and aggregation of news as it came out, with good sifting through of contradictory reports
• Adherence to NPOV a NOR, by and large and where violated, quickly fixed
• Good blend of sympathy but goal orientation (write a good article) in the talk pages
• Better synthesis than most if not all conventional news outlets
• Collaboration between established editors, new users, and anons
• Good follow-up line editing and maintenance of encyclopaedic tone during the whole period

Of course all is not perfect

• The natural home for this would have been Wikinews, not Wikipedia
• Coordination between the corresponding item on Wikinews, and on what became 2 forked French wikipedia versions of the story, could have been better
• There was some vandalism, but reverted quickly

Martinp 12:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised the French version Wikipedia articles aren't better. This happened in Quebec, and many students of the English language Dawson are themselves French Quebeckers. 70.55.85.6 13:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes guys, excellent job. In fact, we recieved some really good publicity as a result of this. Following my uploading of the three pictures I took on my cell phone, in addition to my and others work on the article in its infancy, I recieved a message on my talk page from a journalist at La Presse. Phoned him back and talked to him for a while. Turns out, he wrote an article published in todays paper commending wikipedia on its a) quick response and b) factual accuracy. He cites later a professor of communications and studies which both indicate that Wikipedia is no more prone to errors than is Encyclopedia Britannica. Unfortunately, I was cited as the author of the article, which is misleading, as many others where obviously involved. It should be noted also that the article was orignally created at 12:57 (EDT), approximately 16 minuites after the shooting began by Samaster1991. Very impressive. Thanks to everyone, and give yourselves a pat on the back - I will cite the article when it is available online, in the meantime it is only available in print, in La Presse (3rd/4th page). --Gregorof 02:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is the La Presse Online Link (en francais bien entendu): [[7]] 206.172.19.90 15:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

French Wikinews

Can someone wwrite up a French Wikinews article? My french looks pretty bad, so people would have a hard time reading it. 70.55.85.6 13:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

wikinews:fr:Tireur-fou au CEGEP Dawson College

Original research warning

Am I the only one that's getting slightly worried with the amount of detail being added from an internet profile that may allegedly belong to the person identified as the shooter? --Qviri (talk) 15:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm all for waiting for near-certainities, but... how could they be wrong? I mean, the Internet profile seems pretty clearly to have been written by the same guy that the photos are of. Furthermore, they have the shooter's body, so it should be a simple matter to confirm that the person in the photos is the shooter, that the guns match up, etc., etc. Short of the police perpetuating deliberate falsehoods, I can't see how this "alleged suspect" could fail to be the real one.

That said, it would be preferable for people to base contributions on a variety of sources (including media reports), not on the guy's website alone. --Saforrest 15:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Not really, no. It's a part of a single paragraph. In addition, the link is being established by multiple news agencies, making it a noteworthy part of this mess. --Kizor 15:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

the victim

I've added her name to the article, but there's conflicting information floating around about her age. I've seen it reported variously as 18 (in the reference I provided), 20, and 22. At this point there's probably no really reliable source of information on this, so keep your eyes open and if you find an official announcement, let's use that. -/- Warren 16:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I saw a picture of the scene on the BellSouth home page. Did the victim wear black Converse high-top sneakers? Just curious... --D.F. "Jun Kazama Master" Williams 18:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It's reported that she was called "Stasy" , but her name is "Anastasia". CJAD, major Montreal radio station calls her Stasy. 132.205.44.134 19:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Montreal Police and MGH didnt confirmed the name of the victim. --Deenoe 20:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Gun Control Debate

Is it appropriate to discuss briefly about the gun control debate, or my breif statement beside Gilles Duceppe's comments will be enough? I'm hesitating due to the risk of bias or POV--JForget 16:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

No. The weapons were legally registered. It's bad enough the fruitcake who pulled the trigger is being given his 15 minutes of post-humous fame for this; we need not pander to the attention starved kooks in the legislature as well. Better to find some references first. mdf 17:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

No matter what, gun control WILL be brought into question. Just as it happened with Columbine, it's going to happen here in Canada. As of this moment, none of that has made major headlines yet. If and when it does, then it deserves a place in the article. ♠ SG →Talk 18:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Looking over the article about the Columbine High School massacre, I see that "gun control" gets brief blurbs and wikilinks elsewhere, the article preferring to focus on the matter at hand, not side issues. Seems like a good plan to me. Again, I suggest that people focus on fact-aquisition and (very important, given the media is the dominant source here) fact-checking; what our Glorious Leaders have to say isn't very interesting in the long term. mdf 19:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Gun control is actually also being discussed by victims, especially given that "Glorious Leader" (actually, Dull, Shy, and usually in hiding) Stephen Harper wants to abolish one of the gun control laws, in return for increasing penalties. But this would do nothing to disuade a person who plans to die. 70.51.9.229 04:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Featured Article

I dont know much about "featured articles" but in the last 24hours this has turned out to be one of the best articles I have read on wikipedia. Shouldnt this be a nomo for featured article Samaster1991 19:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:What is a featured article?, and then answer that question for yourself. ♠ SG →Talk 20:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Gill killed by the cop

The Montreal police commish has said and confirmed that he was killed by police, and not by his own gun. SFrank85 21:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we know that.. I think the articles states Gill has been killed by a copS. --Deenoe 21:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems that most of the witnesses are saying he shot himself, and it wasnt the police. Some witnesses posted it online after, and they were saying on the radio just now that many witnesses have said the same. I don't have a reference, so I won't put it in the article.

Well, Montreal Police officially stated an officer shot down Gill. That is why la Surêté du Québec is taking the investigation from now on, cause there was death cause by the police. --Deenoe 21:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I heard they now report the autopsy revealed that Gill killed himself after police shot him. --Kvasir 23:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. Delormes stated first that it was a police fire that killed Gill, but apparently Gill got shot in the arm and felt trapped, so he commited suicide. --Deenoe 10:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Who has said he "felt trapped"? Why kill yourself is you just "feel trapped"? I submit that a better explanation is that he intended to kill himself in the end anyways; this is the whole point of suicide, killing yourself (exercising at least some control over your life), not letting someone else kill or control you.

Anyways, I suggest editors look back over the last few days and consider the implications of the flip-flop in this matter re: current events in Wikipedia. When the media parade starts, facts change so quickly and radically, it can turn an article almost on its head. Even supposedly official sources are frequently found to be in error. And worse is that media references which dominate articles like this can not only go stale, but the underlying content referenced can be changed, invalidating its use. This can be particularly difficult to spot, and makes can make Wikipedia look foolish. This is why I find myself on the side of people who insist that this sort of article is best left to wikinews until the facts have stabilized. What benefit is it to Wikipedia to simply participate in the media clusterfuck that surrounds events like this? mdf 12:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

in retrospect, i agree that the main article needed to be written in Wikinews, a part of the wikipedia world with which i'm not yet very familiar. but skilled wikipedia editors were ready, available, and some were in montreal when this event went down, so wikipedia is where it happened. while exciting, a public good and a kind of virtual newsroom, i agree that it hasn't been necessarily encyclopaedic. is it possible to transfer the article to wikinews, and let people know that wikinews is where to go to continue this incredibly committed and fruitful endeavour? -- Denstat 00:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

the unlucky proffesor

Apparently there was a teacher who was at l'ecole polytechnique, concordia, and dawson at the times of each of the shootings. anyone else hear about that?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.218.184 (talk • contribs)

HIGHLY... HIGHLY doubt it. --Deenoe 22:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• although the above is probably an urban myth, has anything been published about dawson staff/faculty? i personally know someone who was sequestered in their office with colleagues for over 4 hours after the shooting, and she knows another prof who hid under their desk for 3 hours, because they could hear all the shooting. these people have to show up monday, and then teach tuesday; it didn't just happen to the students. -- Denstat 06:46, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Propaganda term

Женя 22:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)"Canadian newspapers identified the woman as 18-year-old Anastasia DeSousa.[22]"

why is she refered to as a woman? oo oo i know why! it sounds more professional on the news. its not. legal age in Canadia is 19 not 18 (contrary to some ethnocentricists' knowing). had she been 19 she'd still be a girl. poor girl.

Age of majority in Quebec (and the rest of Canada) is 18. So by legal definition, Ms. DeSousa was a woman, end of discussion. Details... in Quebec it's 18 for everything but driving. In other provinces the ages vary. — NRen2k5 17:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

september 14, 2006. 18:50 (-5 GMT)

Legal age for? --Qviri (talk) 23:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Legal ages. For driving: 16. For sex: varies, 14-18. Smoking: 19. Drinking: 18(PQ), 19(All others, I think). At 18, in Canada, she would be considered an adult in everything except two things, smoking and drinking... One could argue that sex and voting, are better ways to exercise your womanhood than smoking and drinking... so I'm not sure where exactly you're going. Also "ethnocentrists"?? - BalthCat 23:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Hrmm, in Quebec, the legal age for Drinking and smoking is 18. Either that or the people who've carded me for most 18th year of life were blind.Ghilz 23:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah that's why I mentioned PQ? I wasn't sure about smoking. Point still was that 19 is only for two things in the rest of Canada, so in Quebec it's not even that... there you go. - BalthCat 02:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

um, try 18 as legal age for voting. this full right of citizenship typically characterizes adulthood, and canadians may vote at 18. it's not pandering to political correctness-- Denstat 02:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Since when has the ability to smoke mean you're an 'adult'? As far as Canada goes, 18 is the legal age. Disinclination 03:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia In La Presse

Just a kuddos for us Wikipedians, Quebec Newspaper La Presse has an article on Wikipedia's speed on writing an article on the shooting, as well as linking to pictures. The article isnt yet on their website, so I cant link to it, unfortunately. Just found it kind of cool. - Ghilz 23:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep, we've got some great editors around here. Kudos to you all. If I'm not mistaken, User:Amygdala was the first to discover the alleged shooter's website. ♠ SG →Talk 23:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the support, SG, and for tidying up my edits. I think I may well have been the first. Media attention was drawn to the blog a couple of hours after I put the link up here, and we know that journalists have been looking at the page (eg. the La Presse article). I agree that this article is an excellent example of collaboration in response to tragedy, and it shows the advantages of open-source reporting over mainstream methods. The most informative photos and videos of this event are from cellphones rather than TV cameras, for example. Amygdala 07:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

(As written above) Yes guys, excellent job. In fact, we recieved some really good publicity as a result of this. Following my uploading of the three pictures I took on my cell phone, in addition to my and others work on the article in its infancy, I recieved a message on my talk page from a journalist at La Presse. Phoned him back and talked to him for a while. Turns out, he wrote an article published in todays paper commending wikipedia on its a) quick response and b) factual accuracy. He cites later a professor of communications and studies which both indicate that Wikipedia is no more prone to errors than is Encyclopedia Britannica. Unfortunately, I was cited as the author of the article, which is misleading, as many others where obviously involved. It should be noted also that the article was orignally created at 12:57 (EDT), approximately 16 minuites after the shooting began by Samaster1991. Very impressive. Thanks to everyone, and give yourselves a pat on the back - I will cite the article when it is available online, in the meantime it is only available in print, in La Presse (3rd/4th page).--Gregorof 07:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

If it doesn't go online, can someone scan it and put it somewhere on the internets? I think uploading here would be a bit much, but there's always photobucket, imageshack, etc. Thanks. --Qviri (talk) 12:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess it should be noted -- albeit long after the fact -- that if in fact Wikipedia was the source for the link to the shooter's website, this would amount to an egregious breach of WP:NOR. Yet another reason to move articles like this from the mainline Wikipedia into wikinews. mdf 14:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Only if new deductions or interpretations of the contents of the website were made. Stating that it exists and quoting content and images from it are not OR as it can be verified. HighInBC 15:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I would imagine purporting that somebody's profile on a website belongs to the shooter could be considered OR. If we do not suggest that, then the website is irrelevant to the article. --Qviri (talk) 16:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. When Amygdala claims to have been the first to connect an URL to the shooter, and used Wikipedia to publish this fact , this was original research as per WP:NOR (at least if the claim is true). Wikinews does not operate under the restriction's of WP:NOR, so it would have been acceptable to publish that fact there first. But since Wikinews is not a WP:RS, it would still have to awaited publication in some more acceptable venue before the fact could be introduced here. Water under the bridge at this point, but these are things editors should keep in mind, particularly when working on "current event" articles. mdf 16:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey mdf, I understand the no original research rule. What I meant was that I had added the link to this talk page before there was any mention of the blog in the media. If you read the above discussion, I waited until a mainstream newspaper article on the shooter's blog had appeared before putting the link on the article itself. Hope that reassures you! Amygdala 23:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is the La Presse Online Link (en francais bien entendu): [[8]] 206.172.19.90 15:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks. --Qviri (talk) 16:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow, are we saying that reference to the shooter's online blog probably originated from here? --HappyCamper 10:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Dawson College massacre

Category:School massacres in Canada Massacre is the standard name for these occurrences. LindaWarheads 23:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Well it's definitly NOT a massacre. I dont call 2 deaths a massacre. --Deenoe 23:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Deenoe. Not only that, but there aren't even any news reports calling it a massacre. ♠ SG →Talk

News reports don't count... but I'm still AGAINST calling this even a massacre. --Deenoe 23:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Pile-on. Not referred to as a massacre in media, not a massacre by death count. (BTW, news reports do count; the policy is to use "the most common name used out there." Since this is a new event, pretty much only things relating to it are news reports.) --Qviri (talk) 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...I'm going to move this back for now. It's too much of an intensifier at the moment I think. We can always move it again later. --HappyCamper 23:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I prefer using the word shooting myself... Massacre's such a vague word really... at what point does a shooting become a massacre? Ghilz 23:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Virtually every article in this category of similiar topic is referred to as a massacre see School massacre and Category:School massacres and Category:School massacres in Canada. Different schools with a similiar occurrence. LindaWarheads 23:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:NAME --Qviri (talk) 23:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Dawson College massacre → Dawson College shooting – The old name was shooting, it has been changed to massacre : 2 deaths isnt exactly my definition of massacre Deenoe 23:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support per nom. --Deenoe 23:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support moving it to Dawson College shooting. ♠ SG →Talk 23:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support Dawson College shooting Ghilz 23:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support This was not a massacre. Thank god/allah/buddha --Kvasir 23:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
• support Dawson College shooting. it was an averted massacre. -- Denstat 02:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree on this comment. The Montreal Police fast response and new procedures since Polytechnique prevented Gill to shoot more people, and possibly to kill more. --Deenoe 10:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree on "shooting". However, the police response appears to have had little to do with with lack of a high body count: the instant nutcase fortunately lacked either motivation and/or detailed planning. Simply look at how many people Harris and Klebold managed to kill in about the same time-frame Gill was "given". (And do note that even in that case, H&K ran out of motivation towards the end as well.) mdf 12:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Okay, so I nominated the article when it was listed as massacre. Please stop moving the page back and forth, really. --Deenoe 23:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Massacre?

One person died? Is that a massacre? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.3.64.174 (talk • contribs)

Two persons --Deenoe 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Two including the shooter. ♠ SG →Talk 23:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The shooter killed himself as autopsy has proven. Besides, a typical vehicular accident has more fatalities than this. --Kvasir 23:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Correct : A police officer shot Gill in the leg, Gill felt trapped and commited suicide. Police tragged him outside for reanimation but gave up. --Deenoe 23:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

A murder and a suicide really doesn't strike me as a 'massacre'. Is there an official number of deaths for it to be considered a massacre, and can somebody get that figure?Kribbeh 17:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Note: This is, essentially, an old conversation that I believe arose when some one moved the article from "shooting" to "massacre", though I may be wrong. It does not appear to be an active topic, as it is no longer named a "massacre" - BalthCat 03:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Right, right. My mistake, sorry. Kribbeh 16:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Montreal Metro

Could someone please update the French articles for the Montreal Metro stations from Lionel-Groulx to McGill for the shooting? Maybe even include it in the Green Line article, and the article of the Montreal Metro itself. Geo android 01:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anything happened in the metro system; it was merely evacuated. I suppose it might warrant a quick blurb about the evacuation, but it doesn't make much of a difference. I'm a bit lazy right now, so if someone wants, just add something along these lines to the French articles: "Le 13 septembre 2006, les stations entre Lionel-Groulx et McGill étaient évacuées à cause d'une fusillade au collège Dawson." ♠ SG →Talk 01:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

identities

Seems as though Stacy De Sousa was shot in the atrium, CFCF News interviewed her friend who was with her when she was shot. (CFCF is the Montreal affiliate of the CTV network, which is a national TV network, similar to ABC, NBC, CBS) He said that she stood up, turned around, and was shot.

Also from CTV, it seems that one of the victimes is Khadr Khadim, shot in the head and the leg.

Anastasia de Sousa information in La Presse

I went to check La Presse just now (site: http://www.cyberpresse.ca/) and they have a piece on the young woman who was killed:

• http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20060914/CPACTUALITES/60914183/6096/CPSPECIAL12

My French is only rudimentary (one year at college), so I'm not likely up to translating any information from the piece. There may be interest as time passes in incorporating information about her into this article and/or creating a separate article, so it would be good if one of the bilingual editors could look over this piece for encyclopedia-worthy material. Lawikitejana 04:38, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's a translation of the La Presse article. A bit sensationalist, but it does give more evidence about De Sousa than I've yet seen anywhere else. The quotes from the uncle were made in English originally (I saw them on CBC Newsworld), so this version shouldn't be relied on for quotes.

Anastasia De Sousa was pretty in pink.

On Wednesday, the 18 year old student found herself under a rain of bullets, when a man dressed in black burst into Dawson College and began shooting randomly with a semi-automatic weapon.

Ms. De Sousa was killed while a score of other people were wounded by the suspect, who shot himself in the head after being hit in the arm by a shot from the police.

The pretty teenager with the dark eyes dreamed of a career in international business, her uncle said.

"She was a good girl," declared Pierre Hevey on CBC Newsworld. "She wanted to go to school. I don't know exactly what she wanted to do with her life, but she wanted to travel, she did travel. She had good parents. She went to Europe, she went to Cuba, she went everywhere. She spoke three languages."

Anastasia De Sousa was the eldest child in her family.

"It's difficult for us. She was the first. It took a lot of time to have the first.

"She was good. She was good... She will be always here and here", Mr. Hevey said, pointing to his heart and his head.

At the secondary school Royal Vale, where Ms. De Sousa studied in 2003, she is remembered for her pleasant personality and her participation in student life. In the school hallway on Thursday, a pink rose was placed beside a school directory opened to the pages of the 10th-grade students of that year. Circled in pink, the photo of Ms. De Sousa.

"In the spirit of all the students who knew her, she was different because she always managed to add a little pink to her uniform, whether it was pink socks or something else", said the director of the establishment, John Roumeliotis.

"She liked the colour pink."

--Saforrest 05:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

And after all this, the French article is basically a word-for-word translation of this article in English. --Saforrest 05:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm saying this now, and I think it's important, nothing in that article is of use to us. People are probably going to start adding "good girl, liked pink, yadda yadda yadda" to the article now. The news story about the girl tells us nothing we don't already know. Had it said something about where and when she was shot, that might be of more use. ♠ SG →Talk 06:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes. It is likely to be all we'll ever hear about her, though. Certainly gratuitous mentioning of her love for pink, her innocence, etc. are to be avoided, but there are at least a couple personal details we could pull out of the article. Such things should be strictly moderated, however. --Saforrest 22:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

CBC has a timeline with map

Temporary work-in-progress shooting map.
1. 12:30: Shooter exits car.
2. 12:41: First shots fired outside entrance.
3. 12:44: Nearby officers rush to the scene.
4. 12:42–12:48: Gunman fires on students in the cafeteria. Police shoot him in the arm, he kills himself with a shot to the head.
5. 13:30: Killer's body is dragged outside and covered.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/map-dawson-floorplan/ i changed two instances where the article said 'front' entrance. the de maisonneuve entrance is busy, and possibly considered a main entrance, but not front. useful for anybody checking over sequence of events in article. -- Denstat 05:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, yeah. The Maisonneuve entrance isn't really the front. The real front is actually not used nearly as much as other entrances as far as I know. Now, that is a great map. I'm going to whip up a map of my own using that one as a base (since the CBC version isn't free). ♠ SG →Talk 06:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• You know, I just realized something. That map is from the Dawson floor plan. However, this plan is confusing the hell out of me. I can't seem to place anything on it, especially since the second floor plan is a bit different than the rest. I mean, I know my way around, I just can't seem to visualize anything on a map. ♠ SG →Talk 07:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Alrighty, here's my WIP of the map. I can't figure out how to draw the school plan properly, because I just can't visualize it. I'm pretty sure the placement of the cafeteria (#4) in the CBC version is incorrect. ♠ SG →Talk 08:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• initial reports (CBC Radio, loreen pindera) said gill entered the H wing from de maisonneuve, but what i don't know is since dawson is built on several levels, which floor that's on -- does one enter on the 2nd, or 3rd floor? did he use the escalators or stay on one level? here's another map i found on the dawson site that shows the atrium and cafeteria, that suggests the caf is on the 3rd. [9] incidentally, point 4 of the cbc timeline says his time of self-inflicted gunshot was 12:48, so by deduction he only had approx. 7 minutes to get to the atrium from the door, and that's how long the rampage lasted. -- Denstat 08:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Most of the entrances are on the 2nd (main) floor. The first floor is actually "underground" in a sense, as it connects to the metro and shopping mall (via the metro corridor). That map is a lot more clear. It only takes about 30 seconds to get to the cafeteria from the entrance. ♠ SG →Talk 08:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Updated the map with a school plan. It needs to be redrawn manually, which I suppose I'll have to do later. For now, it should suffice. Anyone notice any errors in the map? If you do, pull it from the article page. ♠ SG →Talk 09:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• looks great to me. what about indicating there the caf and atrium are, since those words are in most sources? also, although it was apparently not a primary target, might be good to include the daycare building. -- Denstat 17:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• I note that someone has taken it upon themselves to change the descriptions of events in the map to be rude comments instead of what they should be, which is describing the actions of a crazed murderer who killed an innocent person. The map under the discussion section is unaffected. I'd change it back but I'm new to Wikipedia and unsure how do so. Whoever did this should be ashamed of themselves. Trowland 17:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Well, I've added two small notes (with arrows) about the cafeteria and the atrium (which has now been added, as it was missing from the image). ♠ SG →Talk 20:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• very nice -- good job. -- Denstat 06:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

• hey ♠ SG, can you verify whether the media have corrected the original Wood Avenue parking place of the killer to de Maisonneuve instead? the article is getting a little messy about that detail. thanks, if you have the time. -- Denstat 02:45, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Amazing

Wow! 736 edits in less than 36 hours. And at the top of this page, some people were questioning whether it should be an article at all! 24.68.180.163 07:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

And some people still do ask the same question. Your point? mdf 11:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Layton background unclear

Warrens cites closeness of dawson to jack layton's alma mater mcgill as his reason for upset -- but the two schools are 1.9 km apart according to google[10], and dawson didn't even move into its current location until 1988 -- was layton a mcgill student at that time? i don't see the relevance except that layton's a former montrealer, so please cite/clarify why this is a fact and not a sympathetic assumption. -- Denstat 08:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Layton himself said on TV that it "hit particularly close to home." He grew up in Hudson, which is just outside of Montreal. He later moved to Montreal to attend McGill. The relevance of the statement is to explain what he meant by "close to home." ♠ SG →Talk 08:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

SG explained my thinking fairly accurately. Adding to that, bear in mind that Layton is generally thought of as being from Toronto, owing to his many years working in the political machine in that city. Readers familiar with Layton's career may not have known that he did actually grow up in the Montreal area, and so he does have a strong personal connection to the place. In other words, he isn't just giving some political double-talk. -/- Warren 15:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

okay, but without a citation that he actually said these things in his official response, that can be taken care of by writing something like: "NDP Leader and former Montrealer Jack Layton mentioned that it "was a grim reminder of previous school shootings" and that it hit particularly close to home for him." definitely the proximity thing makes no sense, unless layton himself said it and then it would stand as his comment. and dawson and mcgill have no special affiliation that i've ever heard of -- that distinction used to belong to marianopolis and mcgill. -- Denstat 17:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I've moved the citation closer to the quote. The information I added is biographical in nature, as a way of lending some helpful context to the statement he made. The information can be found in the article on Layton himself. Scholastic affiliation isn't the issue at hand -- Layton's personal connection to the city as someone who went to school there is what's significant. Layton's been a professor so he feels it from that angle too, I'm sure. (He mentioned as much in the official NDP press release). -/- Warren 23:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Of what relevance is it that he is a Sikh???!

Unbelievable!!! Why does it matter that he is a Sikh!! We might as well point out other irrelevant facts such as that he had brown skin, white teeth, brown eyes, etc. How has this not even been an issue?

He clearly did not adhere to his faith. (Which is fine.) So why mention it!!!

Outstanding!!! - Abscissa 18:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

people are hungry for information, and that info has been appearing and disappearing from this article and the one on Kimveer Gill for some time now. i would agree that until further facts surface that contextualize whether his religious affiliation was important (he described himself as a satanist in his blog]], that it be left out for now. certainly most entries about people in wikipedia do not immediately point out their religion. good you brought it up. -- Denstat 18:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem mentioning it in the artilce about him -- eventually, as well as other IRRELEVANT information: such as he had two brothers, he was gay, he had long hair, he liked death metal, etc. (I just made all of that up). But at this point, to imply a causal link is downright MISLEADING. This is why the media does not report events in this way: "Two Jews were arrested this morning for a break and enter at 505 Center St...." I can't believe this was even an issue!! - Abscissa 19:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

His faith or descent is of relevance in the Kimveer Gill article — albeit not at the START. But since it had nothing to do with the shooting, it needs to stay out of this article. ♠ SG →Talk 19:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

or rather, until, if ever his faith or descent become relevant to the shooting, it has no place here. why it was in the first place is likely due to zealous fact-finding and/or judeo-christian bias, probably. -- Denstat 20:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh but you can be assured that ifo he was muslim, or had any muslim ancestry, or was arab, or had any arab ancestry, or any connections to arabs and muslims that would be the FIRST thing that would pop on on the news. "Two Jews were arrested this morning for a break and enter at 505 Center St...." -- yes... if they're muslim, it will be said, just like that. The bias is almost sickening.

For that case, the media would probably add an extra paragraph and mention a "possible terrorist act". The mention of religious background might in fact be an indirect way of saying which religion he DIDN'T belong to.

timeframe

i belive that the first injuries were at 12:41, as stated in this cbc article. http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/09/13/shots-dawson.html 72.58.29.218 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

TVA's helicopter reporter and other staff compiled this timeline -- if accurate, some details in the current article must change. did he really park at 12:41 on wood avenue, get the rifle out of the trunk, take a hostage, walk to the school, etc., and kill himself all by 12:48 EDT?? http://lcn.canoe.com/lcn/infos/regional/archives/2006/09/20060914-221128.html -- Denstat 07:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

shots fired

it is not going to be easy to count the shots, because he "oppened fire. that means he just started shooting and didnt stop. i'm thinking in the 100's somewhere... http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/09/13/shots-dawson.html

Semi-protection

I think we should consider semi-protecting the article sometime soon, its getting to a time where a lot of the edits by unregistered users is vandalism. Many of the facts are already out, so registered users can add them now. -- Reaper X 22:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this is something quite consistent with this at the moment, in that it seems a bit preemptive, and that the frequency is still comparatively managable. --HappyCamper 10:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

victim

From "The National" CBC National Nightly News, 22h00 16 September 2006

• Victim student Meaghan Hennegan, shot in the lower arm and hip, did not need surgery. She was at the entrance to Dawson with her mother, Kathleen Dixon. Dixon felt the bullets whip by her head. Hennegan realized she was shot after she discovered she couldn't move her arm. Hennegan requires no surgery and is expected to make a complete recovery.

70.51.9.229 04:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

From "Le Téléjournal" SRC National Nightly News, 23h00 16 September 2006

• Meaghan Hennegan (she's bilingual Frnech/English) was the first victim, first person shot.

70.51.9.229 05:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Dawson reopenning

From all news sources... CTV National Nightly News, CBC National Nightly News, SRC National Nightly News, NewsNet ongoing coverage, Newsworld ongoing coverage.

• Today, Friday 16 Sept 2006, faculty and staff returned to Dawson to learn how to comfort students come Monday.
• Blood is being cleaned up, and walls replastered to cover bullet holes
• Monday, students will return for counselling and to retreive personal items
• Tuesday, classes will resume.

70.51.9.229 04:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

it's also on the Dawson website, along with a letter from the director and help info. [11]. -- Denstat 15:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

victim

From 14 September 2006, 23h30 CTV CFCF Pulse Nightly News

• Khadr Kadhim was shot in the head and the leg, and is recouperating at Montreal General.

70.51.9.229 04:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

heroism

From CTV National Nightly News 23h00 16 September 2006

• James Santos and Alexandra Fernandez tried to negotiate with Kimveer Gill to help Anastacia De Sousa. Gill insulted Santos and tried to entice Santos to get closer. Santos believes Gill wished to use him as a shield.

70.51.9.229 04:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

CP Image

I had someone add Image:Dawson-college-cp-1850805.jpg (which I uploaded) to this article once they found an appropriate licence for it in the early stages of this article's development. I've noticed that someone has gone and removed it now. Reasons? I could see someone removing it because they feel it is too graphic, but may I remind all that Wikipedia is NOT censored. I think this is an excellent image, and its graphic nature illustrates the horror of this event well. I request that this image is re-integrated back into the article, if it is free from objections, or I will take the liberty to do so myself in a couple days. -- Reaper X 22:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

By all means, add it back in. I don't know who removed it. My only issue would be with the fair use licensing, but since there is no real alternative, I'm sure it won't be a problem. ♠ SG →Talk 00:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

fwiw, i agree. -- Denstat 00:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it adds anything to the article and is needlessly graphic. I don't think it's necessarily censorship to practice good taste. --ElKevbo 01:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It was run on newspaper front pages, so it would seem apropriate. 70.55.86.135 16:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Someone removed it again, as i got a bot notice that the image became orphaned a couple days ago. I've added it back in, as I don't see any explanation as of late as to why it was removed. -- Reaper X 22:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

THe picture does not apply for fair-use. That is why I think it has been removed. I think it's better to be safe than sorry. We don't want to get Wikimedia in legal problems, do we? --Deenoe 00:42, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Shooter injuries, x 3?

the article states three times that gill was shot in the arm then inflicted a gunshot to commit suicide -- could we cut this back to one, or maybe two instances? right now the 3 nearly identical statements appear in the intro, under Shooting, and then in Aftermath-Shooter. thanks. -- Denstat 01:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

funeral

CJAD AM-800 Saturday 16 Sept broadcast

• Stacy De Sousa`s funeral to be Wednesday 20 Sept 2006
• Memorial to de Sousa Sat 16 Sept 2006, her family did not attend the memorial which was held at a church on St. Zotique

70.51.9.4 05:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Governor General

can someone integrate information from the sources for the second Wikinews article into the responses by politicians section? 70.51.9.4 06:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Motive?

This article doesn't really explain any motive of the killer well or any connection he had at all with this school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.83.132 (talk • contribs)

These things are not clear yet, to anybody. -- Reaper X 07:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

there was a suicide note of 2-3 paragraphs on gill's body [12] it doesn't explain his motives but includes statements expressing the hatred inside him. -- Denstat 07:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

He described himself on his webpage: "He has met a handfull of people in his life who are decent. But he finds the vast majority to be worthless, no good, kniving, betraying, lieing, deceptive, motherfuckers"

Photo of victim

A picture of the victim would be a good contribution, someone pointed to me (see history of the to do list) : Memorials. Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must have a claim to fame besides being fondly remembered.

Claim to fame ? Being the victim of a crazed shooter... List_of_victims_of_the_Columbine_High_School_massacre The basic feeling around the province of Quebec is the overabundance of pictures of Kimveer Gill from the vampirefreaks.com site. The idea is to balance the page a little more.

I'm not asking for a page dedicated to the young girl, just a mention on the shooting page. Mokmo 12:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I really do not think a photo of a victim appropriate. Sounds voyeuristic and creepy to me.L0b0t 13:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I really do not think a photo of the killer appropriate. Sounds glorifying and creepy to me. A page dedicated to the killer has now been created, his picture where he poses with his gun should not be here (i personnally don't mind about the picture of his covered body)Mokmo 20:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright, who do you think is more notable, a guy who shoots 20 people, kills one, and then kills himself -- or a random victim who had not yet accomplished anything in her life? Not to be a dick, but that's just how it goes. Now, tell me, why isn't there an article for every victim of 9/11, yet there are articles (gasp!) for each of the attackers?

Note that the Columbine victims don't have an article to themselves. They all share one list. Once we have a list of victims, then we can go and create that article, in which her photo would be appropriate. ♠ SG →Talk 21:09, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

School's response

I dont think copy pasting the school's letter in a section of the article is not a good idea.. Maybe just put a link --Deenoe 14:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me I just started the section because the editor that added the letter had it placed under the Shooter section.L0b0t 15:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I've removed it several times. I'd be okay if someone wanted to summarize it in one or two setences. But it doesn't really add anything new to the article at all. I also object to using Wikipedia as a press organ for the institution (or any other organization). --ElKevbo 15:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't know it had been removed before. L0b0t 15:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I hope the anonymous editor who keeps adding it back joins us to discuss the issue and work out something. --ElKevbo 19:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Students and faculty

I think some caution should be taken in posting any dialogue beteen student reps and admin. They have a history of verbally attacking each other (see Dawson College). The student reps' comments can be loaded in an attempt at scoring political points. On a personal note, I can't imagine how the admin could have been assisting students when they had been unable to escape their offices (located down the hall from the shooter). I am also told that some admin risked their lives by herding students towards their offices.Trapper 15:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Order of Subarticles

Excuse me, but why is the first point (in the subarticle Aftermath) the shooter? Why not the victims? I think the victims is what people should care about, not the criminal! Just IMHO. Minkus 21:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Place Alexis Nihon survey

Go to Talk:Place Alexis Nihon to have your say on whether the article Place Alexis Nihon should be moved to Plaza Alexis Nihon as proposed by another member. I've put it here since the centre is mentionned a lot in the Dawson affair and also mentionned on this article (The affair is also briefly mentionned on the Alexis Nihon article --JForget 18:03, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions to add

I was reading the Montreal Gazette and I noticed that there are articles about arrests of teenagers that threathened to copy the Dawson shooting or like a Canadian was shoot in an American University (see Sept. 18 2006 newspaper in the Montreal Gazette). Should we add them as the result of the shooting or perhaps the "media frenzy" to cover such related stories?

Another thing is the different opinions between Canadians and Americans, politicians or otherwise, about the shooting. As far as I know, Canadians are more concerned about gun laws while American are more concerned about video games or blaming responsibility over something (I could be wrong about the Americans). Also, we should probably add the responses from communities related to the shooter like the gaming community...Jack Thompson, Goths, etc. A bit early to ask, but something worth to add. See the example from Columbine High School massacre.--Janarius 23:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

imho copycat shootings should have a place in Aftermath once more facts about them are established, although have the articles on the dusquesne shooting suggested that it was a copycat? i thought it was related to fan violence. as for your second point, the Kimveer Gill article has an external link to a message from Danny Ledonne, creator of the super columbine massacre RPG that could be added to Aftermath, say in a sentence or two. the responses are accumulating. -- Denstat 04:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

parallel website activities

Www.theaustralian.com provides an article titled, 'Ex-SAS chief backs video Diggers', which tells us that "a former SAS chief has defended Australian soldiers seen skylarking with weapons in videos posted on the Internet...images of Diggers parodying Arabs... ." Perhaps conjecture should be made that an emulation strategy became deadly. Also there was a small plane crash near the city of Montreal as a temporal incident. 01:23, 19 September 2006 (UTC) beadtot

you know, with a lot more practice, you might become funny. -- Denstat 06:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Try as I might, I cannot see how this is relevant whatsoever. What is the point of this? Kribbeh 16:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Jan Wong controversy - keep or delete?

I was revising the article's "see also" section and rewriting the Jan Wong section for poor syntax when someone else edited at the same time and deleted the dedicated Jan Wong section entirely. I put it back in, revised, under "response" section because it seemed appropriate to put press/pundit repsonses in with video game community responses, etc. Also, Wong has advanced a motive theory, which on its own may be worth keeping; and the controversy about Wong shows the killer's societal impact on Quebec goes beyond the killings themselves. I think that, at least for the first year, this material should be kept. -- Lisasmall 22:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you've got the right idea, but that whole section has no sources, which doesn't bode well for its continued inclusion. We can't be lax about this because we're talking about a living person. -/- Warren 23:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added a reference. --Frescard 23:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Dozens of sources are at the main article, Quebec bashing#Jan Wong. We can transfer some of them if necessary. --Liberlogos 02:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

"Perp" section restored

A brief section comprised of three very short sentences identifying the perpetrator and containing a directive to the main bio article on him Kimveer Gill was added by me to 1. justify removing data which belonged in the bio article on him from this article and 2. point people seeking that data to the right place. This section was deleted as was the pointer to the main Kimveer Gill article as being duplicative. However, it wasn't. It was added to reduce duplication, and point people to the right location. Also, the person who deleted it then left no info at all about Gill, rendering the "Shooting" section (where duplicative bio info had crept in, but was removed by me) abrupt and confusing. The "Perp" section has been restored and should remain as is, particularly the pointer to the main Kimveer Gill bio article. Brief info on the preparation for the crime was added to the "Perp" section as a segue to the "Shooting" section. -- Lisasmall 23:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm really not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. This article is about the shooting, which means that details about the event itself should be front and center. That's why people come to an article titled "Dawson College shooting". The fact that the guy lived in his parents' basement and enjoyed video games can't possibly be more important and relevant in this article than the timeline of the event itself.... can it? You'll have to provide a pretty darned compelling rationale for that one.

Besides, we already have a section on the shooter. We don't need a second one. I'm taking it out and merging the details relevant to the event of this shooting into the "Shooter" sub-section. I'm tossing a Seealso on there as well for a visual cue. -/- Warren 00:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Addendum: I renamed the "Aftermath" section to "Perpetrator and victims", since that's pretty much what it covers. The "Shooter" section could use a good scrubbing to improve the longer-term informative value of Gill's involvement in the shooting. -/- Warren 00:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

See also: Columbine?

Why is Columbine listed under "See also"? The only possible link I see is the video game and I don't see that as a particularly strong link. Are we going to place a link to Columbine in every school shooting article from now on even if the link is tenuous at best? --ElKevbo 01:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

so far the world sees the self-stylings of kimveer gill from his blog/gallery, and that he mimicked some elements of columbine -- the black trenchcoat, Trench nickname, admiration for harris & klebold, and the tenuous connection via the video game. although i don't trust his self-portrayal, obviously columbine was an event he emulated to some extent, and for that reason it deserves to be there. although as evidence emerges, it may make the columbine link weaker, if gill is found to be sick on his own terms, and not a belated columbine copycat. but your point is taken and this bears watching, imo. -- Denstat 06:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

The connection should be explicit and derived from a published, cited source. Otherwise it's original research. --ElKevbo 06:39, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

i wasn't the one who added it, and am not invested in this, but given the strong likelihood that anon users will add it back in constantly if abruptly removed for WP:OR, probably somebody should just find a source that draws parallels, to provide a citation, or post here in Talk how they could find no source. don't mistake my thinking for some kind of vigorous defense of the material. the 'obvious' is not encyclopaedic. :) -- Denstat 19:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed Columbine and the other school shootings from the "See also" section of the article. I could find no cited, verifiable link between the incidents other than they were all school shootings. There are already several related categories and that is the proper way to link these incidents. --ElKevbo 19:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

police swiftness

I suggest making a section about the great job police offers did with handling this situation. They were praised for immediatly going into the school, putting their lives at risk, instead of waiting and "isolating the situation." like the police officers did at Columbine. They prevented many deaths at Montreal. (24 September 2006)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.129.30 (talk • contribs) .

The quick response time was mentioned on CBC Newsworld, if nowhere else. I recall something about the first officers being in the immediate vicinity when the shooting began. Also there was the issue of new protocols in place to allow "zones" of safety declared so that rescue workers could go in without a 100% site safety requirement, or something to that effect. - BalthCat 07:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Correction : The police was meters away when first shots were fired. I think the swiftness is mentionned in the article but it shouldnt have it's own section. It's normal for the police to answer fast : It wouldn't be to answer slowly, like at Polytechnique. --Deenoe 16:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I said immediate vicinity, that's not a correction... and there's still the issue of the changed protocols for rescue workers. - BalthCat 19:26, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Identity?

Has the identity of the second victim in a coma been released yet, or do we know why the name's been kept a secret? Kribbeh 17:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

See also Platte Canyon High School shooting

Because the edit summary wouldnt let me write my explanation, I am putting it here.

I removed the link to Platte Canyon High School shooting simply because it is not relevant to the article. Should we link all the schools shooting that happended in North America? No. Polytechnique and Concordian is relevant : It was the first two school shootings in Montreal, which gave important lessons to the SPVM. Gun politic in Canada is relevant : I don't even have to say why. Columbine is somewhat relevant to this article because it was the first time that us, North Americans, saw something that bad happend in a school, and that was so much advertised on the news. --Deenoe 10:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I would recommend going even further and removing Columbine as the proposed link is rather tenuous.

It seems like some editors believe that all school shooting articles should be included in the "See also" section of all other school shooting articles. This practice needs to stop. That's why we have categories and lists. --ElKevbo 10:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, like I said, Columbine is the first big event of this type that happended.. But if someone removes it, I won't be sad. --Deenoe 21:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Gill's friend

Yup, Kimveer Gill had a friend : and he did death threats too. He was depressed and said : "I might just do like Kimveer : he is true hero". Someone should add this to the article. --Deenoe 02:24, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Added in the list of shootings / shooting related incidents, with two sources. Ghilz 02:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

There's just one issue, the title of the section is School shootings... however, his friend never did a school shooting, just sent an email threatning to do it.

So? The section is already filled with other similar incidents where no shot was fired (Sept. 18, Oct. 2 twice). One could simply rename the section to better reflect its content. Something like "School shooting-related incidents following the Dawson Shooting" or perhaps something less verbose (Following Incidents?). Ghilz 22:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)