Talk:De La Salle Green Spikers volleyball

Requested move 25 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus/not moved. This is kind of a mess, but the prevailing sentiment is that we need to follow reliable sources, and that means there's consensus against most of these moves as proposed. Bensci54 suggested that sources favor moving UST Golden Tigresses volleyball and UST Golden Spikers volleyball; the discussion on that front was sufficiently limited that I don't see a consensus here, but if the sources indicate a move is needed, feel free to move those pages BOLDly (if uncontroversial) or else start a new RM. The suggestion of removing "volleyball" and "football" would also need discussion elsewhere (though see [1]). That said, given the track record of numerous past RMs involving this sort of thing, I'd encourage people to think carefully before starting a new discussion. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:24, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

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• De La Salle Green Spikers volleyball → De La Salle Green Archers volleyball
• De La Salle Lady Spikers volleyball → De La Salle Lady Archers volleyball
• De La Salle Lady Booters football → De La Salle Lady Archers football
• UST Golden Spikers volleyball → UST Growling Tigers volleyball
• UST Golden Tigresses volleyball → UST Tigresses volleyball
• UST Lady Booters football → UST Tigresses football

– The above existing pages have titles that do emulate the placement of a disambiguating sports descriptor after the team name, per WP:QUALIFIER. This style of adding descriptors has been prescribed by example by, among other similar college-sports WikiProjects, this page under WP:CBBALL and this page under WP:CFB for titles of pages about United States college teams. Clearly, these descriptors were prescribed in order to naturally disambiguate (by WP:NATURAL) a page about a team playing a certain sport from pages about namesake teams that are playing in other sports.

In each of the team pages above being requested for moving, however,

1) the team name used is not that of its institution's team's uniform or collective name but the special nickname or unique moniker given to that specific team playing in its sport, so much so that the need for disambiguation disappears.

2) what is produced by the addition of a disambiguating sport descriptor after the team's special nickname is a redundancy. For example, there are no other De La Salle Green Spikers other than the De La Salle Green Archers team playing men's volleyball. For having a redundant title, the page's title then creates WP:OVERPRECISION and breaches the WP:CONCISE rule. That, however, can be salvaged by replacing the special moniker with the institution's team's uniform or collective name, a replacement which is what would have the need for disambiguation and erase the redundancy. Bagoto (talk) 09:04, 25 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 18:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ToadetteEdit (talk) 17:48, 9 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans 12:36, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

• I note that articles of this type are somewhat common in U.S. college athletics on the women's level. For instance, Texas Tech Lady Raiders basketball — the women's basketball program at Texas Tech — is the only one styled "Lady Raiders" (see, e.g. Texas Tech Red Raiders softball). That said, it seems that there are more variations in nickname in Philippine athletics than in the U.S. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 03:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

  The article about the Texas Tech Red Raiders includes in its content the Texas Tech Lady Raiders, at least in its opening sentence. Now, if it so happened that Texas Tech's women's teams were all called Lady Raiders, it'd only be logical to provide or use a disambiguating sport descriptor on the title of an article about any of these women's teams. However, since it seems that it's only Texas Tech's women's basketball team that calls itself the "Lady Raiders", then that appellation should be treated as a unique nickname for that team. Therefore Texas Tech Lady Raiders basketball should be moved to "Texas Tech Red Raiders women's basketball" per WP:CONSISTENT. Bagoto (talk) 04:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

  That proposal would be rejected if it ever came to RM because that's so clearly not the COMMONNAME. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 07:25, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  I haven't actually seen Texas Tech Lady Raiders basketball and it turns out that was the adopted convention cemented by RMs since 2019. WP:AT is ultimately based on the common name by WP:RS; this RM and the proposer's recent unilateral moves all deviate from the standard, basing it instead on made up names, or WP:OR. Howard the Duck (talk) 07:38, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose all as failing the most basic WP:NC. DLSU's volleyball teams called the Spikers, and the other teams are called that way by WP:RS. The proposal is invented nomenclature (in other words, WP:OR). We use US NCAA naming conventions as a rough guide, but should not adopt it word for word as Philippine naming conventions for varsity sports teams evolved on its own. Howard the Duck (talk) 06:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

  Also, the other articles in this RM had previous RMs on guidance on the previous arguments on why those articles are there. UST Golden Tigresses volleyball is now on its 3rd RM including this one and the proposer's arguments have been answered on previous RMs. Suggest speedy close as we've had RMs too close in succession on this, and while consensus can change, unless WP:RS does as well no changes shall be forthcoming in the years to come, short of an actual name change. Howard the Duck (talk) 06:38, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks, Howard. But please bear with me.

  Why the need to put a sport descriptor after those two volleyball teams of DLSU? Is it to disambiguate them from each other? But the one is called the Green Spikers while the other one is called the Lady Spikers, and they're both volleyball teams. To disambiguate them from the other teams? But they're the only ones called Spikers. Now, let us please also note that even the sport descriptor for the Lady Spikers, "volleyball", is already trying to avoid being redundant by not making it "women's volleyball". However, it didn't avoid redundancy enough and became WP:OVERPRECISE simply through the addition of the descriptor it now has.

  I proposed using the institution's collective name for its men's teams and women's teams to avoid the redundancy/overprecision, since the institution's composite team's article states that "the De La Salle Green Archers and Lady Archers are the varsity teams representing De La Salle University..." Meaning that all of the institution's teams are called Green Archers (men) and Lady Archers (women), except that while "the university's teams are collectively referred to as the Green Archers and Lady Archers,...each team carries a specific moniker that references the sport that they play." Therefore, the replacement names I am proposing cannot be WP:OR names. As for the monikers, they can easily be included through the standard "also known by their moniker..." in the very first sentence of the articles.

  I salute your introduction of the US NCAA naming convention regarding the addition of sport descriptors to Philippine college team articles. But I would lobby that we also adopt the implicit reason behind those, which is for the purpose of disambiguating teams from their namesakes. Adopting the descriptors and not their reason would give us redundant or WP:OVERPRECISE, and definitely not WP:CONCISE, titles.

  I beg your pardon for bringing this issue up again with these proposals. My present proposals are, in fact, converse to my earlier-in-the-year proposal at UST Golden Tigresses volleyball, which was for that article's title to drop its descriptor. Yes, there were answers to my arguments there, but I think now that I failed to communicate those arguments of mine well, for I had yet to learn how to properly do so in direct reference to Wikipedia rules and guidelines. I hope I've been more readily comprehensible this time. Bagoto (talk) 13:18, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

  I suppose the question is does having the words "Spikers" and "volleyball" in the article title makes it WP:OVERPRECISE. I'd argue against as "volleyball" as the disambiguating term that's being used, while "De La Salle Green Spikers", the entirety of it, is the proper name for this team, and the elements of that proper name can't be separated from each other, as long as naming articles are concerned. WP:OVERPRECISE and WP:PRECISION links to the same section; it is also stated there that for consistency purposes, you are allowed to be "overly precise", which is the case here, where all college volleyball teams always have the disambiguator "volleyball" whether or not the team nickname is volleyball related. Again, just like what I argued in the earlier RM, "Spiker" is not readily deduced as relating to volleyball. If basketball was not the flagship sport, we may have "De La Salle Green Cagers", "De La Salle Green Shooters" or even "De La Salle Green Dunkers" (LOL); none of those three terms exclusively refer to basketball related activities.

  As for "De La Salle Green Archers" when referring to volleyball (or any other sport) teams; very few WP:RS do this, and if they do, it is most commonly a mistake, and they rectify it on another article. The thinking "the varsity nickname is 'X', so naturally all of its sports teams are also named 'X'," is classic WP:OR. DLSU's volleyball terms are not "also known by their moniker", but "are known by their moniker", sometimes solely so. WP:PRECISION advises against this: "However, do not use obscure or made-up names." "De La Salle Green Archers volleyball" is a textbook definition of made-up names. Howard the Duck (talk) 16:36, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

  All DLSU college teams belong to the umbrella name De La Salle Green Archers, according to this cited source. If your impression is correct that not all of them belong to this appellation, then what is the De La Salle Green Archers and Lady Archers article for if, as you say, only the DLSU basketball team and a few others are called the Green Archers? Would you rewrite (or allow or encourage the rewrite of) the opening paragraph of that article to fit your WP:OR reading of statements that say otherwise? Something to the effect that "The De La Salle Green Archers and Lady Archers refer to (number of) teams of the De La Salle.... who share this umbrella name. Other DLSU teams have their own names. Those teams include...."

  It's the same with the UST Growling Tigers and Tigresses article. The article has a table listing of the monikers for all of UST's teams, and it appears that only the men's basketball team are called the Growling Tigers. Would you recommend the deletion of this article, then, since your assessment says that those other non-basketball teams can only be known by their monikers and to refer to them as also the Growling Tigers/Tigresses would be WP:OR? Bagoto (talk) 05:15, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

  The collegiate athletic program of DLSU is referred to as the "De La Salle Green Archers", full stop, as per your own cited source. This means you'd have to revert your unilateral renaming of UAAP and NCAA athletic programs. Whether it's sports teams are called the Lime Archers, Green Spikers, Lady Booters or the Emerald Sparklers or whatever they want to name it, would be the name of that team's article if used by WP:RS. It's OR to say the women's volleyball team is called the "Lady Archers" based on what the athletic program is called when WP:RS has been calling them as the "Lady Spikers" for decades now! Again, you are making up names; that's classic OR. The same is true with UST. It's collegiate athletic program is referred to as the "UST Growling Tigers" and nothing else. Now if its sports teams want to be called by another name, it is their choice, and if their choice is used by WP:RS, then that's what we'd use.

  So yes, bring back the renamed "UST Growling Tigers and Tigresses" and all of the other article names that were changed to the original ones laughingly based on the DLSU source that you have cited, and for consistency. Howard the Duck (talk) 11:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support moving UST Golden Tigresses volleyball to UST Tigresses volleyball. For this one, the sources do not seem to often use the "Golden". Oppose move from UST Lady Booters football and all three De La Salle moves as not supported by the sources. Lastly, from the sources, it seams that UST Golden Spikers volleyball might actually need to be at UST Tiger Spikers volleyball. Bensci54 (talk) 16:51, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

  No opposition for these alternate article names, but there's a logo with the "Golden Tigresses" name in place of "Growling Tigers" and I dunno how legit is that. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:20, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Higher education has been notified of this discussion. Reading Beans 12:35, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment The requested moves, at least as they currently appear, do not appear to match the rationale offered. The rationale explains why the disambiguating sport descriptor should be removed, but the proposal is to keep the sport descriptors and change the team nicknames, for which no rationale is offered. Robminchin (talk) 00:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.